Margaret Hassan

Sorry to be emotional but this breaks my heart.

Anyone care to say the Americans aren't doing our dirty work for us now? They might have precipitated this conflict early but better now than later.

Edit: Subject to fair objections, I withdraw the following:
[I dare any of the libs to rationalize this atrocity in terms of external influence instead of a fundamentally corrupt moral code.]

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I'm no lib and this is an appalling atrocity. But it would seem to me that Mrs. Hassan carried out her work for the last thirty years without any fear of danger and that it was only after the invasion and the revelations regarding Abu Ghraib that her safety became an issue. Thats not to defend what happened for a second. But iraqis who saw the pictures of the marine shooting an unarmed prisoner must feel a similar sense of revulsion. Anyway, back to the point, she was safe for thirty years as were similar workers and foreigners so i dont think it is as simple as saying there is "a fundamentally corrupt moral code" and this is even more apparent when one sees iraqi citizens marching in the streets demanding her release and the condmenation of these thugs by the majority of the population.

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These people weren't made by the American abuses of prisoners in Iraq.

You say you aren't defending their actions yet twice you feel the need to say she survived for thirty years before the Americans arrived.

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I cant see where i have defended their actions in anything i have said.

As i understand your argument you believe that a moral system which allowed this atrocity to happen existed prior to the invasion and is part of the make up of the iraqi people and that this justifies the invasion. i dont think that this is that simple. I think the fact that she and other foreign workers were in no danger prior to the invasion proves that wrong.

BTW i dont see how the invasion can improve this corrupt moral code you believe in.

>I dare any of the libs to rationalize this atrocity in terms of external influence instead of a fundamentally corrupt moral code.


What's the purpose of your post? It looks like you're just trying to goad others into a fight of some sort. Daring liberals to justify something so you can attack their moral fibre. How childish is that?

Who could justify the murder of Margaret? I doubt anyone could. Sol made some very valid points though. Iraq is more dangerous now than it ever was.

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The people who done this can only be described as monsters.
There is no justification for this. None at all.

But...... please do not paint all Iraqis with the same brush.
She was murdered by the most vile of people.

I am sure this brave woman would be the first to explain that these type of people are not the normal people of Iraq.

Aside, I would also, tactfully, try to get a point accross, that just because a person is fighting the Americans and killing foreign fighters in their land, does not mean that they are one of these people. Much the same way we would not claim that all Americans are evil people because of what was done by a very small minority of American soldiers to the prisoners in Alu Grabi.

This goes to show the lawlessness which the people of Iraq have to live in.
One of the stories which was never reported by the Western Media was the amount of kidnappings, murders and rapes what occurred immeditely after the invasion.
My point is, that while this is a heartbreaking story, it is happening every day to others we don't seem to care about. Remember them as much as you remember people we regard as our own.

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I cant see where i have defended their actions in anything i have said.

Click to expand...

If you want to play semantic hoop-la then: This is how I understand your argument.

I think the fact that she and other foreign workers were in no danger prior to the invasion proves that wrong.

Click to expand...

Haven't Muslim fundamentalists been abducting and killing infidels for centuries?

BTW i dont see how the invasion can improve this corrupt moral code you believe in.

Click to expand...

If you are of the opinion that force will never prevail then there is no discussion.

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>If you are of the opinion that force will never prevail then there is no discussion.


Then why did you start this debate? What was its purpose?

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Angry Gabriel with only two posts, who can you be? Disguising an anonymous alias is pretty childish and forfeits any consideration.

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I'm not taking the bait. Agreed there is no point to this discussion. Good luck.

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>Angry Gabriel with only two posts, who can you be? Disguising an anonymous alias is pretty childish and forfeits any consideration.

I see you're a very rational fellow. How am I anonymous?

Haven't we had enough of these crappy schoolyard debates on Iraq yet? One side egging the other on, looking for a fight. That's what you are trying to achieve. I've watched these posts from afar for long enough. I'd like to know their point. If you can't deal with my simple questions then maybe you'd be better off not posting here. Unless you just want to hear from like minded people?

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Gabriel,

Can you stop this. It ruins it for the rest of us.
You ask for some debate, or answer, which I have given and all you seem to be interested in is having some sort of slagging match. People see what is happening without the pair of you spelling it out.

Can we stop this before both this thread is closed, or the entire subject of Iraq is banned.

Please no more!

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Maybe I'm wrong, if so I apologise, but it seems conincidental that you would have a brand new alias available for just this particular crappy debate.

Anway, that's not the point. There never is a point here. Sometimes good information or a well made argument is an accidental benefit but that's it. The board is called Letting Off Steam.

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I only wanted to put my tuppence in maceface. The first post looks like an invitation to a fight to me. It's that sort of mentality that ruins these debates in the first place.

chapman, I don't know what you're getting at but I have a different alias for financial matters.
For the future I'd suggest that you phrase your questions better. Why ask liberals to justify something? I have a largely liberal mentality but I feel dreadful for what happened to Margaret. Implying that anyone of a liberal mind would want to justify this doesn't make sense to me.
Also, sol's answer was well thought out and factual.

That's all I have to say.

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Gabriel: I withdrew the contentious statement for it's confrontational language, not sentiment. As for your claims to the merits of Sol's statement or it's factual content, I am bewildered. If you think the "fact" that M.H. survived in Iraq for thirty years before the invasion shows that the Americans are culpable in any way for her death then I withdraw also.