lisbon vote

I forgot to mention.
I also have this inner conflict going on. One side of me would really like FF to stay in power for the next few months. The pain really should be associated with those that caused it.
 
umop3p!sdn said:
I forgot to mention.
One side of me would really like FF to stay in power for the next few months. The pain really should be associated with those that caused it.
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It kills me to say this but I agree that FF should stay in power until at least the pain of the budget is felt.

Reason being, anyone in power will have to bring in hideous cuts. If there were a change now, come the next election, FF will be saying how those nasty FG/Lab/whoever brought in tough budget, so vote FF again an' we'll make it all right.

Voters need to understand the consequences of voting FF for years or not voting at all. Hopefully, FF will never again be in power.
 
And is any else troubled by the UK-Independence party campaigning in this jurisdiction? I deeply resent it.
We have enough nutters here without having to import them.
 
I would be quite happy for Ireland to become a part of a greater Federal Europe - it makes sense for me that eurozone countries work together to become a greater economic force. Having been raised in Northern Ireland I always agreed with John Humes assessment that it was pointless arguing over Ulster when we were all going to be part of Europe one day.

So I will be voting for Lisbon with the hope that it will lead to a true federation.
 
D8Lady said:
Voters need to understand the consequences of voting FF for years or not voting at all.
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Most sensible thing I've seen. Almost 40% of people voted FF for a 5 year term, there's no point in half of them whinging now because they want to change their mind after 2 years.

Less than 30% voted for the only sure way of ousting FF i.e. by voting FG. A vote for the greens, labour or independents (particularly independents!) was never guaranteed to oust FF. Also you may as well spoil your vote as vote for SF because no one will go in with them.

So in another way over 70% did not vote to oust FF 2 years ago but want to throw their toys out of the pram now if they're not allowed another vote!
 
Deja vu

Two friends have told me they are voting no because ....
o Min wage will be 1.84 if Lisbon is passed
o There will be conscription and Ireland will get involved in wars
o Ireland will lose its 'neutrality'

I really despair at the gullibility of people who believe such nonsense.
 
First time out it used to annoy me that no-one talked about the treaty itself as a document, just rabbitted on about how "Europe was good to us, we'd be an ungrateful shower", "Remeber WWII, we'd still be at it but for the EU".

However, given how much our own have convinced us that this is a "you're either in or you're out" vote on the EU project, I think they have also convinced the rest of the world (whoever's bothered I mean) that that is what the vote represents.

So, unfortunately, I think voting No amounts to economic suicide and on that basis alone I'll vote Yes (was away last time so didnt vote). Will post other musings later in support of a yes vote.
 

+1

Added to that, those parties/individuals who are pushing for a no vote are the same people I wouldn't trust or look to for advice on anything.
 
Caveat said:
+1

Added to that, those parties/individuals who are pushing for a no vote are the same people I wouldn't trust or look to for advice on anything.
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Yes, I was going to mention that. All mainstream parties are Pro, on the anti side you are pretty much left with a lunatic fringe. I did have some time for Ganly and his views (whatever about alleged hidden agendas or alleged murky background), however even that semblance of coherence is gone.

Also, it seems this time that the big irrelevancies from first time out are substantially dealt with (they wouldnt have influneced me first time either), but I'm referring to conscription & abortion. The new scare tactic re the min wage seems to have been tackled immediately so I dont think that will be a big factor.

My reservations, which I'm willing to overcome, are: 1) I dont want a federal Europe, I think co-operation (primarily economic, judicial as necessary) is sufficient, the less Brussels formal "rule" the better. Now I know Lisbon gives a direct role to National parliments for the first time so maybe that is a balance
& my second reservation, which is probably a vaguer version of point 1 is: 2) I'm a bit concerned about soverignty ... looking ahead to 2016 I wonder will we be asking ourselves how, in 100 years, we've swapped one 'overlord' for another, & lost our power of self determination. Point 2 is a bit more distant and vague so I'm not inclined to think that should sway anyone (any I dont think the EU will ever reach Overlord status in Irish life).

As regards point 1, I dont think a Yes or a No to this treaty is going to be any sort of definitive determinant of how the EU will ultimately go. I think as a nation we need to suit ourselves a bit more, currently we immediately adopt the strictest version of regulations with gusto, while others are a bit more circumspect. I've no problem in saying that anything beyond the 26 counties (with a nod to the 6) I'm not too pushed about, if some particular regulation doesnt suit us then we should adopt at the latest time in the weakest form, rather that trying to play the "good Europeans".
 
If any one says to me “I voted no because I didn’t know what I was voting for” or “I voted no because I wanted to send the government a message” I will make a mental note that they have an IQ less than 60.

Unless you are homeless or illiterate, there is no way you could not know that main points of the Lisbon 2, including its bulls*it, not binding declarations regarding “issues” which Libertas, SF, Coir and Kathy Sinnott raised last time round which had nothing to do with the treaty then and have nothing to do with the treaty now.

This is because every house in the country will receive at least two (count them, two) leaflets, one from the dept of Foreign Affairs and one from the Referendum commission explaining in relatively clear terms the changes that Lisbon is proposing to make to the current EU structure. There is enough info in these leaflets which will take no more than 20 minutes to read, to help make an informed choice.
It should also be clear that voting no to teach the government a lesson is as smart as covering your a*se in petrol and lighting a match. If you want to teach them a lesson, vote them out the next time round. This is not a vote on the government. If people can’t make the distinction, they should stay at home and watch the Eastenders omnibus.

It’s also ironic that people would reject Lisbon to damage the Government. We can’t stop (or start) NAMA. We can’t control the budget. But we can, as the Sovereign of Ireland, ratify the Lisbon treaty. The Lisbon vote is the only real power that the people have. To mis-use it to teach the government a lesson is to make ourselves worse than them, to take way any moral ground we have to complain. And it would mean that from a society point of view, this government truly is of, by and for the people.

M
 
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“I voted no because I didn’t know what I was voting for”
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Another take on that might be why would anyone of right mind vote in something which hadn't been properly explained to them. That, to my mind, would smack of a below average IQ. Following the herd etc. Bear in mind that the main political parties, herds for want of a better word, have led us off a cliff. I, for one, refuse to follow them or their empty words anymore.

We already voted once against Lisbon. Why do we have to do it again? I've said it before I'll say it again, democracy doesn't always mean you get the answer you want but it IS a majority answer.

The EU has continued to work just fine since the last irish 'no' vote and will continue to work just fine if there is a second 'no' vote.

So I'm going to vote 'no' to Lisbon and if the current administration survive that to get to the next general election as the 'government' then I'll vote them out there too.
 
I saw these leaflets and didn't bother reading them. They're probably in the recycling by now.
I doubted that the Lisbon treaty and all its ramifications could be condensed into an unbiased leaflet.
They looked boring too.
 
+1...good post
 

I genuinely think it would help the country if you could contain your zeal for revenge for a more appropriate opportunity.

I also think that anyone who in, broad brush terms, blames "politicians" cos "they're all the same" is either too lazy to distinguish or is a conspiracy theorist. e.g. in what sense have FG or Labour led us off a cliff?

Do you really believe all our main parties are in cahoots with Brussels for some unknown reason?, that they collectively are trying to hoodwink the entire nation into doing something that is against our interest?

If there are 2 explanations for something, one fantastical and one ordinary then chances are the ordinary explanation is the correct one.

Re democracy, its no surprise that the EU would like us to vote again or that the government should try again, after all any political party with any significant representation (and the dreaded meejah) are pro the treaty so why wouldnt they want it ratified & call for a 2nd chance for same. When theres a Yes vote wont that be democracy too, and unless our politicians clamour for a 3rd vote then so be it.

Re what would happen to the EU/Ireland if we vote No, on the one hand I'd be interested in seeing how this would pan out as I dont think, at an EU structures level, it would be the end of the world, there'd be some patch up and life would continue. However, why I wouldnt like it to get to that situation, is that we would have then done ourselves significant economic harm and that is my overriding concern and reason to vote Yes.
 
in other words,you are saying that you are scared to vote no, in case the bigwigs in europe will hold it against us!
 

I see your point, however is it reason to vote no?

As hard as it will be for every single voter, this is not a decision on the Government, it's about the future of Europe and Ireland's role in this Europe.

My point being a knee-jerk 'no' based on bias against a some political parties or that they haven't explained it enough to you is as bad as the herd immediately signing up for a 'yes' vote.

While the state does have a responsibility to explain and educate us in the this, I think we have to also take some responsibility to seek the information and to make up our own minds.

Last time it was very poorly handled, but I don't remember too many people actually going out and trying to find out what it was really about.

I'm still largely undecided. I can't deny the second vote issue always annoys me. I mean, I defend the 'mandate' for the government on the basis of that is the result of a general election, I can hardly be happy with this repetitive voting until we get it right.

Like all things there's give and take in the treaty. I don't think the view of Ireland's taken enough, it's time to give back is such a wise argument, but overall a stable and efficient Europe is good for Ireland.

The fact that it is fringe (even extreme) political parties that have the objections is most telling. Though I'm not sure how we equate the right-wing saying this creates a socialist, secular paradise with the left-wing saying it creates a neo-con nirvana.

All I can say is don't make rash decisions, look around and read up. Try to avoid those sources of information that may have some bias to them and hidden agenda, but at least hear everyone out.

I don't however agree that it is the sole responsibility of the state to educate us, we have some responsibility to do our own research on this too.
 
starlite68 said:
in other words,you are saying that you are scared to vote no, in case the bigwigs in europe will hold it against us!
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No, because we've convinced the world that a No vote means we're turning our backs on Europe. If you were head of a US corporation looking for a route into Europe wouldnt you be mad to go to a flaky Ireland that seems to be slowly dis-engaging from the EU? (thats the picture being painted, wish it was otherwise but might as well deal with reality)

We get a disproportionate amount of FDI and that means jobs. Maybe last time we voted we thought we were strong enough to go it alone, obviously that aint so.

So do we want an Ireland that's at work or not? No one is comfortable that we've found ourselves in a gun-to-head situation, but wishing it was otherwise or that someone is going to give us a medal for "standing up to the EU" (if thats how you see it) are not real world.
 
I think we are going to see the Gov ramp up their scare tactics over the coming weeks to get the 'DONT KNOWs' to vote yes.

We will hear a lot of "it'll cost us more jobs" lines - and considering people are scared ****less about losing their jobs they may just vote yes if they are unsure.
 

Very progressive thinking indeed. I travel a fair bit to Europe thru work, mainly Germany, and our No vote has come up in discussions a few times and not always in a nice way. They cant understand our stance and how paranoid we are. This is not a scare tactic but I am convinced that a No vote will affect contracts, jobs etc.

If you are going to vote No, do it for the right reason.
 
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