Key Post: Camping in France.

Re: Jean de monts

Not True.
All campsites will have their own people (who speak English)
to run Kids Clubs especially during Peak periods.
Some also do off peak but they would be the exceptions.
If you find a campsite that doesn't have a Kids Club, go elsewhere.
You will be hard pushed to find one that doesn't run a Kids Club, after all most of the people going to them
will be families.
Check the difference in price between booking it yourself and going through one of the tour operators.
There is no point in paying the likes of Canvas, Keycamp etc 1,000 euro just to have an exclusive Kids club with 10/12 English speaking kids as opposed to one that has 20 kids of different nationalities.


Spend the 1,000 on yourself!
 
Re: Camping Holidays

As a matter of interest anyone going on the ferry from Cork in the summer would want to get a move on as many of the sailings are fully booked already per phone call yesterday.
 
Some other posts


Dr Moriarty
Registered User
Recommend a good campsite in France...?


Evening all,

Am scouring the west coast of France (anywhere between southernmost Brittany and, say, Royan, in the Vendée region) for a suitable campsite — the one or two I'd first picked out are full — and I wondered if any of you had any personal recommendations? (incl. website/e-mail addresses or other contact info, where possible...) I know they're dotted all along the coastline between St-Jean-de-Monts and St-Gilles-Croix-de-vie, and I've blanket e-mailed/faxed a dozen or so, but am still waiting for a reply.

The party consists of two families of 2 adults + 5 kids (yes, each..!), driving down from Paris for a fortnight, mid-July; we want something nice and relaxing, as near as possible to a beach (ideally walking distance, without crossing main roads would be a bonus) — and with plenty to do for kids aged 5-15... large, splashy swimming pool with "acquatic toboggans", that kind of thing. But we also have two 18-month-old twins with us, so we need a little bit of peace & quiet, too (Our needs are simple, really... )

I found www.campingfrance.com/ to be an excellent resource.

Any "happy campers" out there...? I've considered the gîte/apartment/house rental circuit as well, but for the kids' sake (and therefore ours!) I reckon we'd be better off mucking in with a campsite crowd than locked away in splendid isolation every evening, once the "smallies" have gone to sleep...

M. le Docteur M.

P.S. And yes, I speek currently ze Frrrrench, is no problem for contact zese people!

jem
Moderator
Re: Recommend a good campsite in France...?


try e-mailing zagrella@wanadoo.fr
I am going there this summer. A friend of mine has been there the past 2 years and really enjoyed it.
We (2adults,2kids )are going on 18 june 14 nights on site.
Mobil-Home O'hara 4 people rate 5 : 1 double bedroom, 1 bedroom with two single beds, addittional double bed in the living room, kitchen with gas cooker, fridge, bathroom with shower, separated toilets, table, chairs, covered terrace with garden furniture. Surface area : 28,20 m². Here is the price for this mobile-home :
- from 19th to 26th June : 255 euros
- from 26th June to 3rd July : 255 euros
- booking fees : 20 euros
- local taxes : 12,32 euros

TOTAL 542,32 euros
The site is Zagarella ! - St Jean de Monts.
Best of luck

Martin
Recommend a good campsite in France


To the Doctor,

I have been going to French campsites for 4 years and
one campsite that's looks ideal for you is
Camping Ty Nadan a 4 star site in Southern Brittany.
I think the web address is www.camping-ty-nadan.fr/
I hav'nt been there as yet but taking into account your overall set up with kids up to 15 years of age this looks ideal. I am a veteran of trawling through brochures and another you could consider further down in Royan is La Pinede (the biggest complex of waterchutes on site your likely to find in France). Weather likely to be better.

I've been to Carnac, Benodet, La Yole, the Loire region
and this Easter to a Haven site in Brittany. In a few weeks time going again for 3 weeks to Eastern Brittany
(taking a chance with the weather on this occasion).

But when the kids get a little older Ty Nadan will be on my radar screen.

Best of luck and you might post where you decide to go in the end.

okidoki987
Registered User
Re: Recommend a good campsite in France


A brilliant site where we went last year
[broken link removed]
South Brittany.
Everything for the kids.
Met a family from Wexford there who have been going to Leif for last 5 years and the father said it "was the best campsite he was on in 15 years!"
Only drawback is the evening entertainment is all in French.
They have had a stand at the holiday show in the RDS for the last 2 years at least.

rheinie
Frequent poster
Camp site in france


If you are thinking of St Jean de Monts try LE BOIS MASSION not sure of spelling a great site in a lovley area

Dr Moriarty
Registered User
Re: Camp site in france


Thanks for all the recommendations, folks; I've e-mailed/faxed them and a couple of dozen others, and will let you know how I get on.

Naturally, arriving as we are on the 10th July, we are going to have to pay full whack... — that's the first Saturday after schools break up in France (primary and secondary. Makes you think, doesn't it?)

But at least it means we'll be there for Bastille Day — and outtahere for the Orange parades season...!

Incidentally, I came across another [broken link removed] which others might be interested in... (my link is to the Vendée section, but it's easy to back-pedal upwards and choose another region from the map).

Vivement les vacances...

Dr. M.

P.S. In the course of my web-trawling, I came across a variety of Irish and British agencies offering to book you in to various campsites, arrange your ferry crossings, etc. I couldn't believe the mark-up these guys were taking! (I mean, literally, price it yourself directly, and then substitute a GB£ sign for the € sum...) Am I missing something? Is there a "niche" (?) market here I should be cashing in on?

jem
Moderator
Re: Camp site in france


With regard to price. Was quoted €3600 by keycamp for 10 nights on site in same place leaving Ireland the same day as I am now going. Cost of booking direct with ferry company and site I mentioned above €1860 for 14 nights on site!!!!

getoffthepot
Registered User
Re: Recommend a good campsite in France...?


We were here last year , brill, fantastic beach as well. just below Royan by ferry.

www.camping-cote-dargent.com/

Lots of sites to pick from here www.les-campings.com/index.html

heinbloed
cote d'argent


Really the best part of the soud-ouest!!!

michaelm
Registered User
Re: Recommend a good campsite in France


Martin:

How did Carnac compare with Benodet & La Yole. I've just returned from Benodet & La Yole but I was thinking for maybe Carnac for my next trip.

Martin
Recommend a good campsite in France


Michael M

I did'nt like Benodet (the site is in Campotel's brochure).
The site was ok but I did'nt like the general ambiance of the place. Spent one week there in 2001 and one week at La Grande Metairie.

La Yole (2 weeks in 2002) was very nice and peaceful (did you get to meet the burly looking security guard). Lovely site but the outdoor pool complex was very poor particularly the slide and the water was'nt heated from what I recall.

La Grande Metairie in Carnac (in Campotel brochure) is a fine site in every sense of the word. It has everything and I would say is the most popular site the irish go to in Western Brittany. Probably booked up for this year I'd imagine.

For the record spent 18 nights in 2003 at a beautiful site in The Loire called Camping de L'Etang (near Angers). If you want to get away from your fellow countrymen and get beautiful weather for a six hour drive from Roscoff
then this is a fine site with a huge Parc des Loisirs just across the road.

Hope this is of help.

Frank
Recommend a good camp site in France


If willing to travel as far as Royan I can strongly recommend Camping Bonne Anse which is in La Palmyre about 10miles west of Royan. I have been going there since 1984.Great for children, swimming pool, kids pool, 3 water slides etc. Small supermarket on site, take away, bar, table tennis. Very clean site, shaded, lashings of hot water for showers and wash up, toilet facilities always clean. Nice relaxing site, but would be very busy July and August. You can get their web site via Google.com. There is a small beach, but not great, within walking distance, but much nicer beaches within 3/4 miles. La Palmyre itself is a small village with nice atmosphere and many places to eat at reasonable price. La Palmyre has the best zoo in all of France, should not be missed. Royan is also very nice to call into.

Dr Moriarty
Registered User
Got one!


Thanks for all the tips, people — we finally settled on this place.

I like the smallish size, and the easy access to the beach, and the few miles between us and Saint-Jean-de-Monts (which gets "black" in the summer months...) OK, the pool doesn't have one of those monstrous water slides, but — presumably — is therefore unlikely to be overrun all day long by monstrous teenagers (of all ages..!). They also came in at quite a bit cheaper than comparable 4**** sites — they quoted me €1150 all-in for a 7-person mobile home for two weeks in July, whereas most of the others were closer to €1400/€1500 for the same trip...

Dr. M.

jem
Moderator
Re: Got one!


Just to give a review of the result of my holiday in St. Jde M and the Zagrella site.
We thought it was great, the campsite only had 205 pitches many of which were not in use too early for French and many of the english.
There seemed to be a massive amount of Irish cars in the site and in the area in general.
If you are not the type to sit by the pool all day every day there is plenty to do with in a 30 mile radius of jdm.
Would recomend the sea world a few miles away.
Went to the zoo in Le Stables quite small but worth a visit if your kids want to. be aware that the booklet we got showed the zoo the st.Jde M side of Le Stables - it isn't - you have to go through Le Stables.
All in all we had a great holiday and liked the place a lot, in fact we intend to go to the same site again next year as there are a lot of things we didn't get to do like the water park etc.

I would personally advise if you are driving there and back to leave st.j de M the day before the ferry espicially if you are travelling the cork/roscoff brittiany ferries route as the ship leaves at 10.30 am for cork and it is a longer trip than you think.I would advise going via St. Nassarie(spelling??) the bridge is something else. be careful that you dont go into the city(we did by accident and it took us ages to get out to the bridge even though we could see the damn thing).
If you want other details feel free to post again and I will try to answer them.

sueellen
Moderator
Re: Raining


Jem,

Did you get as much rain as we did recently

jem
Moderator
Re: Raining


sueellen,
It rained on the first Monday morning- we were shopping,it was nice in the afternoon.
The next morning it rained for a while - we were checking out where to go etc. lovely in the afternoon.
The rain woke me on tuesday night thereafter the sun was brill. circa 30degrees every day, it was dull on the thursday when we were driving back to roscoff.
A little better than Ireland I would say

Dr Moriarty
Registered User
Re: Raining


Glad to hear it, jem — we leave for St-Jean-de-Monts on Saturday!

sadie
camping in france


Doc, I'd be interested to know your experiences on your camping holiday, and any advice you'd have on doing something similar again. Thanks

Dr Moriarty
Frequent poster
Re: camping in france


Hi sadie,

Well, the campsite itself (Aux Coeurs Vendeens) was lovely — quiet, peaceful, plenty of shade, spotlessly clean pool area and facilities, brand-new mobile homes, etc., etc. It's a family-run site — with a little hired-in help in peak season, obviously — and the owners and staff couldn't have been nicer. Nice quiet crowd, too, and very family-friendly — somebody's kid wandered off one day and there was an unofficial "search party" on her trail within minutes... (didn't take long to locate her, either, given the small size of the site...). Cars can't get in the gates after 11pm, and no problem with boy racers or noisy mopeds zipping around between the emplacements — they make you park them at the reception area.

It definitely suited our purposes, as between the two families we'd seven under-10s — two of them under-2! The eldest two lads (15 & 16) were a bit bored, I reckon — but that was their problem, as far as we were concerned... Anyway they quickly discovered the bus service down to St-Jean-de-Monts.

All in all I'd definitely recommend it if you've young kids and want somewhere safe and relaxing, as we did this year. What I most like about a place like this is that your own night doesn't have to end when the kids fall asleep — we'd two mobiles side by side and you could just sit outside having a glass of wine or whatever and know you'd hear them if they stirred...

Oh, and the woman running the (free) kiddies club — 10.00-12.30 Mon/Wed/Fri, 10.00-3.00 Tues & Thurs — was great with the kids!

novice camper
Re:camping in france


Hi All,
Having read all of the above comments on this subject it started me thinking about trying out such a holiday as i have 3 kids myself the oldest been 13.
However having no experience of driving in france i wouldn't like to travel too far so probably western france would be my limit ( thinking of around carnac).
My query is does anybody have any experience of what the weather in this region would be like in june.
Thanks in advance.

CDM01
Registered User
Re: Re:camping in france


Would thoroughly recommend Alan Rodgers guide to camping – [broken link removed]

Stayed in sites in the Loire, Dordogne, Province, Languedoc Rouisollon, Ardeche, Midi, Normandy, and the Southwest over the years.

All tastes are catered for, whether for a family holiday with sites with a pool and activities, to quieter sites that would suit couples etc. Above all, the sites are clean.

macnas
re Camping in France


Weather in this part of France can vary. You can expect some rain but when sun shines it is lovely. Like a very good summer here.
Driving there is easier than here. Excellent roads and well signposted.
If you go a little further south of the Loire you improve your chances of better weather. A 3 hour drive gets you here. Lots of campings around so you can take your pick. June is very quiet as schools in France do not close until July.

Amanda C
Brittany Ferries to France
.

I have booked a week in France and am travelling on the new Brittany Ferry from Cork on 22nd May. Anyone been on it yet and know if it is any good.

Last time I went on the Irish Ferries Normandy and swore never again, but I am hoping this one wont be as bad as it is a new Ferry. I am still getting over the ordeal of the last one!

cardigan
Ferry


Why - what was wrong with it?

Martin
Ferry


Absolutely superb.

Was on it at Easter. You'll never go Irish Ferries again
after youve been on this baby.

Martin

Slim
Registered User
Re: Ferry


Was Normandy not also Brittany Ferries? Val de Loire was/is a super ship and I would say this one is even better. I look forward to using it next year.

Slim

Amanda C
Brittany Ferry to France


I think Brittany Ferries also had a Ferry called "Normandie", but the one I was on before was the Irish Ferries Normandy. Never Ever again. If anyone has booked this, I would advise them to cancel.

Dirty, filthy, smelly, rusty, food apalling....need I go on. Apparently they are not refurbishing it as it needs to be totally replaced. Engines broke and took over 24 hours to get to France and the exact same on the return journey.

Thanks for the comments about the new ship. Can't wait to go now.

Age25
Nicest/easiest French port to exit from
.

I have never brought the car to France and am a bit nervous about driving there. So can anyone recommend the port that is easiest to exit from and perhaps somewhere to go to. I am thinking about a 100 mile radius of the port. Would it be wothwhile for two people to rent a mobile home or should I stay in a hotel or similar.

PMU
Easiest French port from which to exit


If you go to Cherbourg (i.e. with Irish Ferries ex Rosslare) you just exit the port, follow the signs, and you are on the road. This ring road keeps you away from the town (which is a bit of a dump). If you go via the UK, via the Chunnel, you exit the train onto a slip road that takes you directly onto the French motorway system. Can’t comment on Roscoff as I’ve never been there, but I doubt that it is any different. The Irish ferries web site (www.irishferries.com/) provides maps of the ports, estimated driving times in France, etc. If you go via Cherbourg you can continue down the Cotentin peninsula (it’s a good straight dual carriageway) then you could head east along the Normandy coast visiting the D-Day landing sites, then you could go inland to see nice agricultural countryside, visit the WW2 memorial museum at Caen, the Bayeux tapestry, etc. If you head west you are into Brittany, and could visit St Malo, Mont St Michel, see Celtic remains all over the place, etc. Either way, don’t worry about driving, the French drive to a much higher standard than the Irish, the roads are far superior and so is the signage. Just remember to drive on the right, always look in your mirror and over your shoulder before even thinking to turn left or change lanes, etc. Believe me, after 5 mins it will seem as if you have been driving on the right all your life. If you are nervous of driving in towns, just don’t go in during rush hours (especialy the evening rush hour), and you can always stay, for example, in the Campanile or Ibis hotel chains that are generally located on the periphery. Have a good holiday.

jem
Moderator
Re: Easiest French port from which to exit


I am just back from France. Travelled Brittiany ferries cork/roscoff. I was talking to a few truck drivers on the boat and they all told me that they would only travel to france this way as opposed to on the irish ferries ship. The latter is appearently "an old tub" their words, while the brittiany ferries is a new ship only launched this year it is faster, more comfortable and better on choppy seas like we had on Saturday.
Also Roscoff is further down in france so easier to get to anywhere you want to go down south.

Martin
Ferries to France


Anyone any experience of using an alternative to France other than Irish Ferries or Brittany direct to Roscoff.

Anyone recommend a worthwhile cost saving ferries only alternative that they have used that does'nt involve a huge amount of travelling. I would be departing from Cork preferably but Rosslare would be my second choice. I am tentatively looking at maybe Cork to Swansea and drive down in under 4 hours to Plymouth and across then to Roscoff.

I have a campsite picked out for next year that is only 75 miles down the coast from Roscoff.

Thanks.

gmankev
Registered User
Did the Chunnel to Calais


I was going further east, into Germany mind. I travelled via dublin and channel tunel and then drove 700 miles to southern Germany.

Considering the long drive the other side I preferred this option as a direct ferry to france has just 3 or so sialings a week where as the ferris to dublin are 5 or so a day and the channel tunnel is every 30 minutes..

Channel tunnel is super smooth and takes just an hour from leaving the motorway at one end to reentering motorway on other side

It looks like you are staying further west.. so this may not be so relevant. fair enough.

Done this return trip twice now in the last year... Once with 3 pax and once on me tobler. You might think the pax are useful to ease the boredom and share the driving but mostly they sleep, add weight, eat and go to the toilet and all out of synch with every one else and when you need to refuel. Ah fek we had great fun stopping at different places and stuff. On your own, you make good time and honestly dont mind the driving
 
Some other posts

Forgetful
Roadside Assistance for France


Hi there,

Travelling to france next week and just thought of taking out a roadside rescue/assistance for my car. Is there any firms offering this online?

Slim
Registered User
Re: Roadside Assistance for France


Have you tried AA? Try www.theaa.com/

I think they do this for France.

Slim

Forgetful
Roadside Assistance


The AA seems to offer it as an extra to their annual membership - this makes it expensive. Any other companies?

traveller
Roadside assistance for France


You could try these people www.irelandassist.ie/

Some insurance companies use them so your insurer might also be able to help under Euroassist if they provide same as an optional extra.
 
Re: >>Camping in France.

Just back from France, St Jean de Monts, with Keycamp holidays (Cork). They are very good overall and if you need to change your itinery they are very helpful. They provide roadmaps, hats and fun packs for the kids etc etc.

I would definetly travel with them again. The Irish French crossings are absolutely disgraceful. I came back via Roscoff to Rosslare (Went out via Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead & Dover-Calais). For the amount of money they charge you for sailing you would think they could manage the odd smile. Ignorant B@stards. I would never travel with them again.

What I intend to do , maybe in early september is go back via Wales & England again as keycamp give you a free return ferry crossing from Dover to Calais. I would stop over in England for a night before driving south.

PS. Anyone driving south from Calais to the Vendee, stear clear of the Le Mans route, it is torture.
 
Re: >>Camping in France.

Steve said:
The Irish French crossings are absolutely disgraceful.
Steve the Cork to Roscoff with Brittany Ferries is super. Also you should think about booking your ferry and accommodation yourself. We were in France for the first two weeks in June and saved close to €1000 over the Keycamp prices and our mobile was nicer and on a better pitch than the Keycamp ones.
 
Re: >>Camping in France.

Just back from a camping (well mobile home) holiday in South East France near Perpignan. Great location on the coast but also close to the Pyrenees and Spanish border. Great towns like Carcassonne within a day trip too. A bit far to drive (although there were a few Irish families there who had driven) so we chose the RyanAir fly drive option. Late booking the flights so paid about €800 for 2 adults + 2 kids, car hire (Fiesta) was €333 for 2 weeks (Carjet). Accomm with KeyCamp (via UK website!) was about €1000. All in all pretty good value I thought until I spoke to an English couple over there who were in the caravan next door to us - paid equivalent of €500 via Leisuredirection.co.uk!! Took a look at the website and it looks good - plenty of great late deals for all sorts of hols there. This couple booked back in Feb so not only good for late deals. They dont seem to be flogging for 2006 yet but I'll be keeping my eyes on it.
 
Re: >>Camping in France.

Have often - well, just the first time out, to be honest! - had that experience of getting nattering to the English 'neighbours' and discovering that they'd paid about half (through Haven or whoever) what we'd paid through Keycamp for ostensibly the same holiday. I know the UK operators enjoy economies of scale that Irish agencies don't, but the end-price differential is still pretty remarkable...

Know a couple of friends that are looking to book something like this next year, and will certainly recommend that they do a price-check with Leisuredirection.co.uk - thanks for the link!

How did you find the , by the way? Or had you the good sense to enjoy the local vin de pays instead? (that region accounts for about 70% of the domestically-consumed wine in France...)

[Edit: Whoops! Just realised it's the same poster - apologies! Garçon, mon visage est-il rouge, ou quoi..?]
 
Re: >>Camping in France.

DR,

Found the price of a pint of lager to be quite expensive at about €4.50 - well expensive by the standards here in the West, maybe not compared to Dublin. Surprisingly, though the wine in the Hypermarkets was more expensive than expected - still cheaper than here but could easily pay €6/7 a bottle for a good local Cotes Du Rousillon. No shortage of vineyards offering free tasting and better prices if you took a drive out of town though - picked up some nice Muscat De Rivesaltes at good prices.


After hearing how much our English neighbours had paid for their hols, we actually mentioned it to the head KeyCamp rep in the course of conversation. Her explanation was that prices for holidaymakers from the different European countries were set relative to the cost of living in that country (or what the people are prepared to pay for holiday I suppose!) - apparently the poor old Dutch and Danes pay even more than us!
 
Re: >>Camping in France.

Gosh, that does surprise me - even though, admittedly, it's been a couple of years since I was down there, and most of the time I'd have been drinking wine, not beer (and French beer, rather than imported stuff - although it's not what they do best...).

Another way of getting half-decent local wine, without paying for distributors/retailers' overheads, is to track down the nearest co-opératif. They're local producers' outlets where you can bring along your own 1.5l mineral water bottle - or 5l canister, as you wish! - and have it filled from a barrel of your choice at €x/litre (best thing is to watch what the locals are buying...). It's not 'fine wine for discerning palates', but it's young, fresh, hasn't travelled (and isn't intended to, nor to be kept) and tbh it's probably better than a lot of the exported AOC stuff that we'd pay €15+/bottle for. In Ireland, I gather, if you spend <€10 on a bottle of wine (any wine, not just French), about €1 of that is going on the wine itself...

But I digress. I mean, who goes to France just to get pissed for cheap?
 
Re: >>Camping in France.

Dr Moriarty,
Who indeed??
Am heading off to France next week for a few weeks. Staying at Camping de Kervilor in Trinite sur Mer, La Clariere in Ronce les Bains, Camping Chantepie near Saumur in Loire and Pointe St. Gilles at Benodet.

Anyone have experience or knowledge of these sites? Any advice/tips welcome.

Slim
 
Re: >>Camping in France.

Hi All

Just back from France and each of the sites was better than the previous. From my research into the sites generally, I would never book a mobile through Keycamp or any other operator again. I had 5 weeks over there for the price of a Keycamp fortnight, as I towed own caravan. One slight disappointment was Camping Pointe St Gilles in Benodet. Overrun with Brits and Irish, a bit cramped. Benodet was lovely tho'. The most expensive main course we had was scampi, about €14, and it consisted of 4 jumbo prawns, but all other meals good value. When we got off the Irish Ferries Normandy, not as bad as I'd feared btw, we stopped at Jack Whites's Inn and paid €9.50 for each main course lunch. That hurt but it was lovely. Heading for Germany/Italy next year.

Slim
 
Re: >>Camping in France.

Bienvenue de retour, Slim.

Hope the caravan wasn't dragging the ground through being overloaded with wine?
 
Re: >>Camping in France.

DR.M


Sorry, didn't see post til now. Did not overdo the wine as was afraid of towing weights. Concentrated on Cognac and Armagnac. Got a dozen bottles of Bordeaux AOC for €26 in supermarket. Thought it would be pi*%, but it was beautiful. Working our way through the brandy now.

A'voir. Slim
 
Re: >>Camping in France.

No expierence of self-catering in France, after this years expierence in Ireland I'm going to next year, was going to book thru Keycamp but after reading this excellent thread I'm going to book ferry & accomodation seperatly should make some savings €€'s, Q at what time should one book for next year, I assume once the ferrys & sites are open for booking but I'd appreciate feedback from some one who's actually booked.
Thank You.
 
Re: >>Camping in France.

The earlier you book the ferry, the better. Irish Ferries used to offer discounts of up to 30% if you put down a deposit by end October, IIRC...
 
This is a great thread - full of information that will help us plan our first ever camping holiday in France.
Last year we booked a holiday where there were no children the same age as ours, and the few kids that were there were not able to speak English - disaster for our family!
We want to make sure we stay where Irish or British families go. Our three are 15, 14 and 11. We plan to fly to Nantes in July. Any tips please?
 
Suggest that you look at campsites featured in brochures of the major tour operators from Ireland, e.g. Kelair/Campotel, Keycamp, etc.
These sites usually have their own websites where you can book directly, which is usually cheaper than going through the operators.....
Also, see other threads on this subject.
[broken link removed]
 
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