Joint ownership Fair buyout siblings

CampbellM20

Registered User
Messages
9
Hi there,

My sibling bought our rented family home back in 2002 and asked if i would go in on the mortgage in 2004 as a joint owner. Didn't want to do it but was convinced by my family it would be a huge investment. My parents were also living with us. We were under the illusion they had "right of residency" only under this new mortgage. My parents never paid rent just contributed to the bills and food for themselves. The mortgage initially was taken out with Irish Permanent and we remortgaged in 2004 to do some renovations and the mortgage was then with RBS who has since sold the debt to Pepper. I have now married and moved out of the family home since 2015. the first year away from the family home i paid the mortgage and paid rent to my husband. after that year i could not sustain the 2 so my sibling decided to get 2 tenants into the house. for those years up to now all transactions have gone through her with nothing coming through my account. Any additional money was pocketed by her and not paid off the mortgage. When my husband and i tried to remortgage our own house i was informed by the bank that i could not get €40K as i was liable for my other home. I have now asked my sister to buy me out as it is now affecting my financial status. It has also come to light that my parents are down as joint owners on the property this may be a mistake by the bank im waiting on confirmation on this. My father is deceased but my mother still resides in the home. she is 80 now. My sister and I were hoping with some independant legal advice that she would sign a deed of postponement to us however this does not solve my problem with the buyout. the property is worth about €350K, Mortgage left to pay is €175K. I have paid in €78K what is the fair amount that i am due? Is it a 3rd of the equity or what i paid in or am i best walking away with €30 - €40K. My sister believes that the bank should give her the remortgage but Pepper have told me they do not do remortgages that they want the debt paid and that we would need to go to another bank but The Mortgage we have on our property is a tracker which she does not want to loose and she believes that i should transfer ownership to her for a small fee? I don't know what to do
 
I'm finding it quite hard to understand what you're describing.

Was the family "rented house" a local authority house that you bought from the LA? And is your mother living with two strangers in this house? Very strange.

It might be easier for people to understand if you set everything out chronologically and used more paragraphs.

So:

2002 Sibling bought house, self and sibling and parents reside in house (how did sibling buy house?)

2004 OP (YOU) re-mortgaged house and took out joint mortgage with sibling?

etc
 
sorry new to this!

Parents rented house from the council up to 2002 - 20 years
2002 my sister bought house from council
2004 we remortgaged and i became joint owner
We were led to believe that my parents had only right of residency but it has come to light that they are written as joint owner of the property

Sister lives in home with one tenant now and my mother lives in a self contained unit we built on the side of the house father deceased.
I moved out in 2015 to buy house with husband.
For 3 years there were two tenants living with my sister, all moneys went through her account any additional money was pocketed by her and not paid off mortgage

Property worth €350K
Mortgage left to pay €175K
I've paid in €78K

Can my mother sign a deed of postponement to sign over her share to us? How do i calculate what I'm entitled to - is it what i paid in, split equity or agree a figure like 30 - 40K to walk away
My sister does not want to loose tracker but pepper do not do remortgages.
Its a real mess but one i need some advice on.
Thanks
 
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Parents rented house from the council up to 2002 - 20 years
2002 my sister bought house from council
2004 we remortgaged and i became joint owner

It has also come to light that my parents are down as joint owners on the property this may be a mistake by the bank im waiting on confirmation on this.


Hi Campbell

I very much doubt it's a mistake by the bank.

I would be surprised that someone other than the tenant could buy a house from the council. It may be true.

I suspect that your parents and your sister bought the house from the council and they are the owners.

To become a joint owner in 2004, you would have needed your name to go on the deeds. Again, I understood that there was a clause which meant that the owners would have to get the permission of the council to sell it on. They may have got this.

You need to talk to the solicitor who you used to do the deal and find out if your name is actually on the title deeds.

It might be just on the mortgage.

Brendan
 
Hi Brendan,

I have checked with the bank the 4 of us are on the title deeds so as you say my sister and parents must have bought from the council and i was then added in 2004 once with bank.

knowing this now where does it leave me with getting off the mortgage?
 
What we can be sure of

You and your sister are named on the mortgage.
The mortgage is with Pepper
It is a cheap tracker.

Pepper wants to get rid of this mortgage.
You want to get your name off the mortgage.

You cannot do this and keep your tracker.

If you "transfer ownership to her" , that is between you and her. But your name remains on the mortgage. Pepper will not let you off the mortgage. They want you to redeem the mortgage.
 
Can your sister get a mortgage of €175k on her own from another lender?

What is her income - roughly.

If she can't get a mortgage, then you are stuck on the mortgage until it is paid off or until she can get a mortgage.

How many years are left on the mortgage?

In theory, you could initiate High Court proceedings to force the sale of the house, but presumably you don't want to render your mother homeless?

Brendan
 
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It's not possible to say what a fair price would be.

We don't know if you own 1/2 the house, 1/3rd of the house or 1/4 of the house.

Go back to 2004.

It sounds as if the intention was that you and your sister owned the house equally. And that you owed the mortgage equally. But did either of you put up a deposit? Or was the deposit the value of the house in excess of the price you paid?

I think a court would say that you own it equally or 1/4 each. and therefore your equity is 1/4 of the total equity of 175 (350 -175) or 45k ish.

I have paid in €78K what is the fair amount that i am due?

They were mortgage repayments I assume. Looks like you were paying about €600 a month which would the same as the rent, so it's not like an investment which you would expect to get back.

Brendan
 
Can your sister get a mortgage of €175k on her own from another lender?

What is her income - roughly.

If she can't get a mortgage, then you are stuck on the mortgage until it is paid off or until she can get a mortgage.

How many years are left on the mortgage?

In theory, you could initiate High Court proceedings to force the sale of the house, but presumably you don't want to render your mother homeless?

Brendan


Can your sister get a mortgage of €175k on her own from another lender?

What is her income - roughly.

If she can't get a mortgage, then you are stuck on the mortgage until it is paid off or until she can get a mortgage.

How many years are left on the mortgage?

In theory, you could initiate High Court proceedings to force the sale of the house, but presumably you don't want to render your mother homeless?

Brendan

she earns approx €70K, she wont even entertain a new mortgage because of the tracker :(
19 years are left on the mortgage
i would never see my mam homeless
 
she earns approx €70K, she wont even entertain a new mortgage because of the tracker :(

Then you are stuck. There is nothing you can do.

After you mother dies, go to the High Court and force a sale of the house.

Or you could play tough with her now. Get her written agreement to remortgage in 2025 or else you will force a sale of the house now.


Brendan
 
Can your sister get a mortgage of €175k on her own from another lender?

What is her income - roughly.

If she can't get a mortgage, then you are stuck on the mortgage until it is paid off or until she can get a mortgage.

How many years are left on the mortgage?

In theory, you could initiate High Court proceedings to force the sale of the house, but presumably you don't want to render your mother homeless?

Brendan

sorry one last question - If she can get the mortgage of 175K will she need to add on to pay me off?
 
Yes, your ownership of the house is worth something.

If you own half of it, your equity is worth half of €175k, so she should pay you about €80k for your interest.

Brendan
 
Hi Brendan,

Could she just get the mortgage for €175K and just pay me from her savings/Installments?
Would there be any tax implications to me say if she gave me €30K

Thanks
 
She can pay you whatever way she likes in a lump sum or in instalments.

There would be no tax implications.

Brendan
 
Hi Brendan,

Me again!! I was able to get my hands on original documentation and all 4 of us are joint owners. rightly or wrongly that's whats there in black and white.

My sister has been told she can't get a new mortgage with my mother on the title.

If my mother signed a deed of postponement could my sister get a new mortgage to remove me from the mortgage?
Or could mam and I transfer ownership to her and then she take out a new mortgage or am I stuck here?

Thanks
 
Hi Campbell

I am not a solicitor. I have not heard of a deed of postponement.

But you said that your sister would not give up her tracker.

So the first thing you need to do is to find out if your sister is happy to take out a new mortgage.

Is your mother and your father's estate happy to "sell" their interest to your sister?

When you have all that worked out, you need to go to a solicitor and ask if it can be done.

Brendan
 
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