italian election results: will brussels finally listen to the people

Discussion in 'Letting Off Steam' started by joe sod, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. joe sod

    joe sod Frequent Poster

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    The italian election results is another slap in the face to the unlistening bureacracy in Brussels. This result follows on from the austrian elections and german election results where right wing parties are in power or have gained large support. This cannot simply be dismissed as populism. There was a laughable quote by the defeated government party in italy, "The democratic parties have been defeated by populists", the democratic parties were defeated by democracy because they refuse to listen to the people. The main reason of course for the election results is unchecked immigration into italy which the mainstream parties throughout europe refuse to talk about or deal with honestly.
     
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  2. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    Yea, inter-generational corruption, debt and incompetence; it's all the fault of those pesky immigrants.
    It is laughable that those domestic issues are laid at the feet of the EU. Nigel and Boris and are in good company. Oh, and each country sets its own policy on emigration, not the EU.

    This is the same populist clap-trap trotted out by the little-englanders who voted for a return to the 1950's.

    This is the same mindset that elected the buffoon Trump, a man who doesn't understand that a president is not a king.

    We shouldn't take democracy for granted, it's not as robust as some seem to think.
     
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  3. TheBigShort

    TheBigShort Frequent Poster

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    I like both comments above.

    I think the term 'populism' is a term that tends to be used in a demeaning fashion - e.g "those people over there don't understand whats good for them".

    Regardless of what I personally think of Brexiteers, Five Star Movement, Nigel Farage, Trump etc, they are simply conveying their own perspectives and social and economic matters and those perspectives are ringing true with a lot of the population.

    So if we were to take a cold hard look at the social and economic ills of the day, then perhaps we could relate somewhat to what is happening. I personally believe that I would share a lot of the concerns of these groupings, but I would attempt to resolve the problems in different ways than to what they are proposing.
     
  4. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    We in Europe have a history of blaming minorities and/or marginalised groups for social ills , even when they have no real connection to them. It generally hasn't turned out well.
    That's the danger of populism; it offers simple, and usually incorrect, solutions for complex problems. It tells us that we are not to blame, rather is is some "other" and if only we deal with that other then everything will be fine.
    It is a lie and it is dangerous and to ignore it is to sacrifice reason and logic on the alter of bigotry, nationalism, racism and xenophobia.
     
  5. joe sod

    joe sod Frequent Poster

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    That has been the prevailing wisdom in europe, we cannot talk about migration into europe or illegal migration because of what happened in the second world war. Therefore anything got to do with these topics must be met with silence, that is what the mainstream parties in europe have been doing for years now and the populations have had enough of it. Silence is not a solution, the only parties prepared to talk about and address these issues are the so called "populist" parties. When we look at other western countries like Canada, Australia, Japan and USA you cannot wander into these countries as an illegal migrant, only europe sends out ships to "rescue" migrants in the sea and drops them in italy. For example Canada is lauded for its liberalist policies yet it has tight controls on migration including on refugees, there are strict criteria and they talk about numbers. Only in Europe has a blind eye been turned to this topic, we cannot talk about numbers, we cannot talk about deportation of illegal migrants. Italy has borne the brunt of this dishonesty and it has had enough
     
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  6. TheBigShort

    TheBigShort Frequent Poster

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    I dont disagree.

    I disagree somewhat. I think the rise of bigotry, nationalism, racism etc does not happen in a vaccum. There are underlying causes, typically represented by a lowering oof living standards (perceived or real).
    I find it interesting that immigration angst in UK tends to focus more on Eastern Europeans more so than any others, in a country that has had widespread immigration since the 1950's.
    My theory on this is that, very much like Ireland, first generation Polish, Czech, Latvian etc immigrant workers have tend to compete directly with 'native' workers. This is fine when work is abundant, but when it is scarce it is a cause of rising tension. On the otherhand, immigrants from Africa, Middle East and Asia tend to congregate in new communities of their own, Chinatown as an example. Its only when the second generation of those immigrants, speaking with Irish accents, or Cockney accents emerge are they considered as 'one of us'.
     
  7. odyssey06

    odyssey06 Frequent Poster

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    I don't know who this "we" is, but I am European and I'm not part of it.

    Has Canada sacrificed reason and logic on the altar on its immigration policy?
    Is Canada's immigration policy populist?
    Why, if a European politician advocates for a similar immigration policy are they demonised as populist - or worse?
     
  8. odyssey06

    odyssey06 Frequent Poster

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    "italian election results: will brussels finally listen to the people"

    In short, no. I don't think Brussels could survive such an encounter with reality, and they know it.
     
  9. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018

    There are just over 500 million people living in the EU. 20 million of them were born in one EU country and live in another. 35 million of them were born outside the EU. In the UK 13% of the population were born outside the UK, 5% are from within the EU and 8% are from outside the UK. Irish and Americans make up a large chunk of that UK immigrant population. The average age of immigrants in the EU is under 30 and most of them work. The idea that they are the cause of national economic ills is utter nonsense and it is that notion, propagated by the ignorant and the racist, that is more of a danger to our culture than the odd Mosque or dark face.


    The “immigration crisis” as it is laughably called concerns about a million people, 2 million tops. The vast majority of whom are educated moderate middle class people from what was the only first world Arab country, before we in the West destroyed it in a proxy war with Russia to remove our dependence on Russian gas. Even if half of them end up on welfare, and they won’t, that’s still less than one in 1000 of our total population. If you want to see what an immigration crisis looks like then go to Lebanon or Jordan or Kenya or Tanzania.


    Blaming immigrants for economic woes is like blaming the deckchair attendant on the Titanic for the iceberg.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  10. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    If a European politician conflates economic issues, like they are in Italy, with immigration then they are being dishonest and populist as well as racist.
    If you don't want Muslims or blacks or Jews or Johnny foreigner in your country then just be honest about it.
     
  11. cremeegg

    cremeegg Frequent Poster

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    I have several concerns about Muslims.

    Those concerns may be misguided or based on my misapprehension of Islam but nonetheless they are real concerns for me.

    I am concerned that Muslims do not believe in equality for women in the public sphere.

    I am concerned that Muslims do not believe in Civil Rights for homosexuals.

    I am concerned that Muslims do not wish their next generation especially women to integrate with broader society.

    I would extend this concern about not wishing the next generation to integrate with broader society to other groups as well as Muslims.
     
  12. odyssey06

    odyssey06 Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  13. joe sod

    joe sod Frequent Poster

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    With regard to syria yes i agree with you that they are refugees and have a valid claim on european asylum. However the vast majority of migrants arriving in italy from libya are not Syrians. The bulk of the migrants that entered germany since 2015 are not Syrians and are not skilled as they are still unemployed today. Should we be allowing big numbers of illegal unskilled migrants into europe that are not refugees, Canada does not do it , ditto for Japan and australia.
     
  14. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
    Agreed; the vast majority are European.

    Have you anything to back that up?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  15. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    Have you read your link?!
    The Dublin Regulation enshrines in EU law that member states are responsible for determining the status of asylum seekers. It makes it clear that the country which the asylum seeker first entered is where they must make their application.
    Oh, and it deals with asylum seekers, not immigrants.

    It was a hot topic because, just like us, the Italians find it easier to blame someone else for their problems than accept their own culpability.
     
  16. odyssey06

    odyssey06 Frequent Poster

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    So all your earlier comments in this thread about immigration and the Italian election are thereby invalidated because in fact the topic in the Italian election was EU asylum law, of which you agree Italian law is subject to an EU law so they are not in total control of it?
     
  17. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    Again, have you read the link? Have you read my post?!
    The EU convention states that the laws of the country where the immigrant entered the EU apply. Therefore immigrants who enter Italy are subject to Italian law and Italian law only. It is 100% up to the Italians whether they stay in Italy or not. It is a fabrication, a nonsense, a lie to suggest that EU immigration policy or law determines who or how many immigrants are allowed to stay in Italy or Ireland of Little-England.
     
  18. odyssey06

    odyssey06 Frequent Poster

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    Of course it does, at a minimum, it means asylum seekers reaching the EU whose first port of call is Italy, make their application to Italy.
    That is EU law.
    It is nonsensical to suggest this has no determining factor in how many immigrants\asylum seekers stay in a particular EU country.

    All member state law in this area is subject to EU courts. To suggest that it is 100% up to Italians is untrue, when EU courts have several times overruled member state law.
    "The CEAS is composed of a number of directives and regulations that require action by the EU Member States or are directly applicable within their national legal systems. The European Commission follows closely the full and correct implementation of CEAS and has adopted many decisions related to the application of asylum rules... The ECHR has held against several Member States for violating the EU’s legal regime on refugees on issues of detention, status of reception facilities, and lack of legal remedies."
    https://www.loc.gov/law/help/refugee-law/europeanunion.php
     
  19. Sunny

    Sunny Frequent Poster

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    Is your issue with refugees or economic migrants? All the above covers is refugees who are protected by the Geneva convention. Even the link you posted above from the BBC talks about migrants so you seem to be talking about two different things. They are not the same.
     
  20. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    So you are saying that the EU law stating that the Italian government and Italian law is the sole determiner of who and how many asylum seekers stay in Italy somehow limits Italy's ability to determine who and how many asylum seekers stay in Italy. Grand so.

    The Dublin Conventions (1 and 2) deal with asylum seekers, not immigrants.
    The total number of asylum seekers in the EU in 2016 was 1.3 million. The number of first time applicants between 2014 and 2015 was 694 thousand. source