KBC Is the KBC 'prevailing' rate argument dead in the water?

Discussion in 'Tracker Redress' started by mccoypat94, 14 Feb 2018.

  1. unfortunate

    unfortunate Frequent Poster

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    Got email back from KBC about queries I had. Usual guff. Was looking for roll off letter for 2008 but not available. Looked for 2007 and 2008 originally. Got one dated from Aug 2007 on 25 Jan but when checked the properties the content was created that day 25 Jan 2018! How would people view that.?? I also looked for glossary of terms and a mortgage product booklet but they sent waffle that I have already from original contract. Still no explanation of prevailing or if SVR was available why it isn't worded in letter of offer.
     
  2. unfortunate

    unfortunate Frequent Poster

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    Did pk mention prevailing rates today. I think I read he did in relation to ptsb but did he talk about KBC and their view of prevailing.??
     
  3. Darn40

    Darn40 Frequent Poster

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    No didn’t hear him mention prevailing rate, but he did say that Kbc still had issues. He mentioned fixed from the start, he also mentioned the flyer and that it says all fixed rate will roll to tracker, that it didn’t say it only applied to new costumers. also mentioned the way Kbc are trying to use the February 08 deadline.
     
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  4. unfortunate

    unfortunate Frequent Poster

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    Fair play but he and we could be pushing a heavy load up a hill. Better if CB pulled that load up, kicking and screaming. Any thoughts on what I should do with dud letter they sent me.?
     
  5. Darn40

    Darn40 Frequent Poster

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    I think we need to keep in contact with Padraic kissane, also any question that are put to Kbc that they don’t answer or your not happy with the answer ask them again. It might be a good idea for you to say that you have misplaced the hand book and you would like them to send on another one to you.
    in other words when they send us a load of guff back, as you rightly say, in replying to questions we have asked them.
    We need to keep making noise and be heard keep asking the same questions until they are answered. Kbc just want to send us back a load of waffle and hope we will go away.
     
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  6. Darn40

    Darn40 Frequent Poster

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    @ sanparom
    Have you received a response to this complaint yet.
     
  7. Sanparom

    Sanparom Frequent Poster

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    I have. Not impacted. Still going to pursue it though. In the letter, they mention what the three impacted cohorts were (I can't remember off the top of my head - letter is at home), but there was absolutely no mention of the flyer!! They say in their letter that the prevailing rate was the SVR, but didn't give me any proof of this.
     
  8. Darn40

    Darn40 Frequent Poster

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    Surely they need to prove this.
    I though if the contract was confusing, they had to favour us.
    Our contracts do not explain what the lenders prevailing variable rate is or was, that alone is confusing.
    Also Padraic kissane says, that the flyer was for all fixed not just new.
     
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  9. gnf_ireland

    gnf_ireland Frequent Poster

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    As the flyer was sent to brokers only, I would imagine that the best position that can be taken was that anyone who fixed via a broker could claim to be impacted. If the fixing was done directly with the bank, and not via the broker, I am not sure someone would win the argument that they were impacted by it to the FSO - I think you can safely assume KBC would reject the position given their track record.

    But if an existing customer used a broker to fix in between the dates in question, then I think they would have a reasonable case to say they were impacted by the flyer.

    I am not sure what the bank practice was at the time, but I know my wife had a mortgage via Ulster Bank at the time, and all discussions around rate changes etc was through the broker. She never dealt with UB directly on rates.
     
  10. gnf_ireland

    gnf_ireland Frequent Poster

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    I think this will be a hard argument to make. There is a bit of general 'mis-interpretation' on the contract favouring the other party if it is confusing. I am not claiming to be an expert here (i.e. I am not a lawyer), but my understanding is this is where there are two clauses in the contract that directly contradict each other, then the ruling is in favour of the party who did not write the contract.
    This is very different to claiming the wording in the contract is confusing to the reader. All contracts are supposed to be read and explained by a solicitor and signed off that they are fully understood by the client.

    Practically every sentence written in any language is open to interpretation. Even the best written laws have legal challenges around them. Even the best legislation ends up with loop holes arising in them. This is not unusual, and its the nature of written language. This is where the courts are likely to have to make a ruling on...
     
  11. Geturtrackerbk

    Geturtrackerbk Registered User

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    Good morning,

    It appears that the "prevailing rate" cohort remain the forgotten cohort of Borrower in KBC. Can I ask though has anyone had any response from KBC regarding the Mortgage Booklet from 2005 that says that you can choose any rate (fixed, SVR, Tracker) once your fixed rate expired. Despite a number of requests KBC are not answering the question as to why they failed to offer a tracker rate when they sent out the various options once an initial fixed rate expired. ANyone have any joy with getting a response to this question?? Thanks
     
  12. unfortunate

    unfortunate Frequent Poster

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    They said not contractually entitled to one. I got a copy of a booklet from them but have no idea if its from 2005 (my mortgage drawdown year) or it could be 2008 or anytime in between. My main argument is the flyer.....ALL fixed rates will now roll.
     
  13. Johnc6

    Johnc6 Registered User

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    Last edited: 6 Jun 2018
    I rolled from fixed end of 2007 and complained that I was not offered tracker as per 2007 handbook, they responded: We would note that the Handbook that you refer to was introduced by the Bank in May 2007 and was not the handbook provided to you when your loan offer issued in November 2005. My follow up with the FSPO is that I referenced the 2007 Mortgage handbook as that was the KBC handbook version applicable to the specific time of our complaint, December 2007. As the KBC mortgage handbook is an evolving document, only the current version at any particular time should be relevant to customer queries. If KBC disagree with my opinion then anyone who took out a mortgage on fixed rate from May 2007 and during the lifetime of that 2007 handbook, independent of the fixed timeline, they should have been offered Tracker at the end of that fixed rate according to the handbook. The Tracker was dis-continued after 2008 mantra would not hold any water in that scenario.
     
    Last edited: 6 Jun 2018
  14. unfortunate

    unfortunate Frequent Poster

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    Have FSPO been back to you yet? I also have complaint with them regarding correspondence and flyer. I think their defence is the customer needs to ask for a product rather than them offering but is this contrary to consumer code and best interest of said customer?
     
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  15. Johnc6

    Johnc6 Registered User

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    no have not heard back yet, my complaint concerns a few points also,
    · Prevailing versus SVR
    · SVR not documented anywhere in contract, loan offer, handbook etc.
    · Flyer
    · Handbook
    · Data missing
    · No phone transcripts and subsequent notes interpretation
    · Central bank Regulations: GENERAL PRINCIPLES of Consumer Protection Code,
    · Current KBC Bank policy towards customers and Mr. Wim Verbraeken’s testimony to Finance Committee:
    · Central Bank Statistics show the Prevailing Variable rates with Irish banks during 2006-2008 was the Tracker Rate.
     
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  16. unfortunate

    unfortunate Frequent Poster

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    Oh didn't know that last point. That's a good one. Other than that my complaint is similar. Wonder the thoughts of the ombudsman are on all this.
     
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  17. Wonder

    Wonder Registered User

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    Same complaint here ...FSPO won't move until the end of June .I phone them last week they seem to have a good understanding of KBC antics....the fight is far from been over .
     
  18. unfortunate

    unfortunate Frequent Poster

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    Hopefully it is far from over and some light shines. Banking antics have been shameful for too long. Little man being stood on. Time to kick back.
     
  19. bluestilton

    bluestilton Registered User

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    In the same boat with regard to complaint to FSPO re KBC. Applied for tracker in 2005, mortgage application manually changed to svr either by bank or broker (tracker scribbled out and variable rate box ticked). Was not aware of change until I requested file and found copy of application form included. To make matters more complicated I had signed the application form at the brokers and had assumed my husband had signed it also but it was not his signature on the application. Contracts issued as a discounted variable rate but we assumed this was a tracker, after a year we were on 4.5% interest rate and have been screwed by "The Bank of You" ever since. Letter of complaint to KBC two years ago took 15 months to reply to, they were blaming broker who has gone out of business, have complaint with FSPO since last autumn, they have told me they need time to consider as it is a complicated issue. Complaint to FSPO also points out the major inconsistencies in KBCs explanation of types of products between application form and contract, KBCs blatant disregard for the consumer protection code and unfair terms in consumer contracts directive. Another point we brought up in the complaint to FSPO is that under the terms of the Framework for conducting the tracker mortgage examination KBC re obliged to consider, in the context of the transparency of the documentation provided to the consumer, whether there was potential to confuse or mislead the consumer in relation to a particular term pertaining to the loan agreement and whether particular terms had dual meanings (section 3.6, page 4 of CB Tracker Mortgage Examination Framework issued Dec 2015). KBC appear to have focused on examining only mortgages approved within a set timeframe. The many complaints re KBC on this forum indicate that there is a real need to form a lobby group to put pressure on this bank.
     
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  20. mccoypat94

    mccoypat94 Frequent Poster

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    Anybody who believes they have a case with KBC and havent had any joy dealing with the bank are in a very tough position at present.

    I spoke to the FSO last week and the very helpful member of staff told me that basically there are 800 + compliants backed up by the FSO which wont be dealt with until the central bank review is complete. I told her that KBC seem to believe that they are complete , there is no indications that they will accept any futhur cases without being forced, so how do we get this moving?
    She bascially accepted that we know as much as they do at present...
    When will the CB announce they are complete?