Irish Times "Who would be a landlord?"

[Brendan Burgess]

A landlord’s life: ‘On the darker days I’ve been spat at and threatened with a knife’

Numbers don’t add up for small landlords who are exiting the market

www.irishtimes.com

Who would be a landlord?

Many would sooner admit to being an axe murderer these days. Commentators with a knack for a soundbite have merged those who rent out property into one convenient, avaricious bogeyman. Some landlords are making lots of money, of course, but others really are not.

Cuckoo, vulture, parasite, profiteer – many landlords don’t recognise themselves in the housing debate. The soundbite merchants would have you believe that foreign funds own the entire rental sector, hoovering up housing stock and renting it back to us at extortionate rates. The reality is that a landlord in Ireland is far more likely to be your retired uncle, your taxi driver, your sister or the owner of the corner shop.

 

[DazedInPontoon]

The reality is that a landlord in Ireland is far more likely to be your retired uncle, your taxi driver, your sister or the owner of the corner shop.

Yeah, the middle class. The reality is a lot of the people renting are seeing their rent going up beyond the official rates of inflation. So they feel stuck renting in a rising market, with rents so high they can't escape it. They will never have sympathy for whatever cashflow issues a landlord is having with what is usually an additional property to the primary one which they also own.

The soundbite merchants would have you believe

If you actually listen to the people renting you don't need to listen to soundbites at all to know what the reality is.

 

[AlbacoreA]

Yeah, the middle class. The reality is a lot of the people renting are seeing their rent going up beyond the official rates of inflation. So they feel stuck renting in a rising market, with rents so high they can't escape it. They will never have sympathy for whatever cashflow issues a landlord is having with what is usually an additional property to the primary one which they also own.


If you actually listen to the people renting you don't need to listen to soundbites at all to know what the reality is.

Listening to only one side is exactly why the market is the way it's is.

 

[Firefly]

More landlords than ever putting properties up for sale, say new figures

Notices to quit from landlords to tenants rose to 958 in final quarter of 2021

www.irishtimes.com

More landlords than ever putting properties up for sale, say new figures

There was a sharp increase throughout last year in the number of notices to quit issued to tenants, according to the Residential Tenancies Board, rising from 352 in the first quarter of the year to 958 in the final quarter.

Hilariously, SF Eoin Ó Broin:
“This is not a new trend but Government refuses to put in place a plan to slow down this disorderly exit of accidental and semi-professional landlords from the market.”

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Ironic in the extreme that many landlords are leaving because of a fear of what Sinn Fein/IRA might do if they get into government.

The idea of unelected Army Council members in Belfast influencing housing policy here in Ireland is a scary one.

 

[Mcivor]

SF response is ironic alright as I'd say their anti landlord rhetoric is driving a lot of landlords to sell up now while they still can. The SF plan to prevent the impact of this landlord exodus is to remove selling as grounds for terminating tenancies, and only to allow properties to be sold with tenants in situ. This would greatly reduce such property values as would restrict interest to investors only, and only those that can fund the purchase with cash as banks insist on vacant possession when issuing mortgages. This 'plan' would have a serious impact on property values both houses and apartments, and I think in some ways explains the exodus of smaller landlords from the market. Onerous taxes, increasing regulations and anti landlord sentiment are also contributing to this exodus

 

[AlbacoreA]

One LL I was talking to at the weekend said they felt they would lose control of their properties.

If you might be thinking you'll have changes, in your financial situation, perhaps a different focus. You don't want to have assets and funds locked into a long term contract you can't get out of for a best part of decade or so. Which is what most people are expecting is coming any day now.

 

[Thirsty]

Ironic in the extreme that many landlords are leaving because of a fear of what Sinn Fein/IRA might do if they get into government.

To be very clear, and to ensure that I am not accused of being argumentative or off topic I would point out that I have reported this post.

Which report was rejected with the recommendation (somewhat to my surprise) that I post my report here.

The IRA was and remains an illegal organisation.

Sinn Fein is a legitimate political party.

However one might feel about their policies, naming a legitimate political party as an illegal terrorist organisation is at best poor discourse; at worst it skates close to the defamation that is so carefully avoided on this board.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

To be very clear, and to ensure that I am not accused of being argumentative or off topic I would point out that I have reported this post.

Which report was rejected with the recommendation (somewhat to my surprise) that I post my report here.

The IRA was and remains an illegal organisation.

Sinn Fein is a legitimate political party.

However one might feel about their policies, naming a legitimate political party as an illegal terrorist organisation is at best poor discourse; at worst it skates close to the defamation that is so carefully avoided on this board.

Garda Commissioner ‘stands over’ IRA-Sinn Féin remarks

Drew Harris says he gave the position of the Garda and never engages ‘in political interference’

www.irishtimes.com

So you disagree with both the Gardai and the PSNI?

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

The IRA was and remains an illegal organisation.

Sinn Fein is a legitimate political party.

There is historically a lot of overlap, probably a lot less now.

The issue is that SF have a large democratic mandate and calling them "SF-IRA" is name-calling. It's a bit like how people called Fianna Fáil "Zanu-FF" around 2005. It's also just tedious, distracts attention from the real issues, and is unlikely to convince anyone who is not already very partisan.

 

[Clamball]

A landlord I spoke to over the weekend has sold their property and were glad to do so. Back in 2006 they instructed the agent not to rent it out again as they wanted to sell but the agent made a mistake and rented it, then the crash happened and they were stuck. Finally the value increased and they gave notice in 2021, tenants left and they freshened it up and put it on the market and sold. Between capital gains tax, tax on the rental income, hassle with tenants (the neighbours were not slow to complain) and general upkeep of the property they ended up with very little profit for the effort they made. They feel they are no better off than they would have been selling back in 2006.

They possibly also held onto it in the hope the kids might use it during their college years but this did not happen either.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

There is historically a lot of overlap, probably a lot less now.

The issue is that SF have a large democratic mandate and calling them "SF-IRA" is name-calling. It's a bit like how people called Fianna Fáil "Zanu-FF" around 2005. It's also just tedious, distracts attention from the real issues, and is unlikely to convince anyone who is not already very partisan.

How can anyone compare “Zanu-FF” with Sinn Fein-IRA”?

The police North AND South of the border have said that the Provisional Army Council controls both Sinn Fein AND the IRA.

Zanu PF are dodgy despots down in southern Africa with literally nothing to do with FF.

 

[Firefly]

A landlord I spoke to over the weekend has sold their property and were glad to do so. Back in 2006 they instructed the agent not to rent it out again as they wanted to sell but the agent made a mistake and rented it, then the crash happened and they were stuck. Finally the value increased and they gave notice in 2021, tenants left and they freshened it up and put it on the market and sold. Between capital gains tax, tax on the rental income, hassle with tenants (the neighbours were not slow to complain) and general upkeep of the property they ended up with very little profit for the effort they made. They feel they are no better off than they would have been selling back in 2006.

They possibly also held onto it in the hope the kids might use it during their college years but this did not happen either.

Friends of ours sold recently too after being put through the ringer twice by tenants who stopped paying rent & left the place each time needing thousands in renovations. Can you imagine not paying rent on anything else and being allowed to retain possession of it?

 

[cremeegg]

To be very clear, and to ensure that I am not accused of being argumentative or off topic I would point out that I have reported this post.

Which report was rejected with the recommendation (somewhat to my surprise) that I post my report here.

The IRA was and remains an illegal organisation.

Sinn Fein is a legitimate political party.

However one might feel about their policies, naming a legitimate political party as an illegal terrorist organisation is at best poor discourse; at worst it skates close to the defamation that is so carefully avoided on this board.

There are a number of otherwise reasonable posters on here who are just a little obsessed with SF/IRA, if you just look on it as a harmless side effect of too long spent reading the IT and watching Claire Byrne you will find your enjoyment of AAM will be immeasurably increased.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

There are a number of otherwise reasonable posters on here who are just a little obsessed with SF/IRA, if you just look on it as a harmless side effect of too long spent reading the IT and watching Claire Byrne you will find your enjoyment of AAM will be immeasurably increased.

The country and its electorate are sleepwalking into armageddon. Sinn Fein/IRA will lay waste to everything that’s been built since Whitaker and Lemass put us on the right path. Landlords, tenants, employees, business owners…everyone will be worse off. I for one do not want the Army Council of the Provisional IRA running the country. This site has more than its fair share of smart reasonable people; you have a duty to fight the rise of Sinn Fein/IRA. Ireland is now analagous to 1930s Germany; let’s not allow our country to be walked off a cliff. These people are grifters and chancers, but they’re also dangerous. I don’t agree with Ivana Bacik’s politics, but I can safely say that she or her supporters won’t kneecap me or murder me. These people aren’t the Healy-Raes…they’re sinister.

 

[Sarenco]

On RTE’s drivetime yesterday, Eoin O Broin said that there was really nothing that could be done to stop (what he called) accidental and semi-professional landlords exiting the rental market.

I found that surprising as Sinn Fein are promoting a Bill to remove an intention to sell as a legitimate ground for terminating a tenancy.

Has there been a change of mind?

 

[AlbacoreA]

On RTE’s drivetime yesterday, Eoin O Broin said that there was really nothing that could be done to stop (what he called) accidental and semi-professional landlords exiting the rental market.

I found that surprising as Sinn Fein are promoting a Bill to remove an intention to sell as a legitimate ground for terminating a tenancy.

Has there been a change of mind?

They want to lull people with a false sense of security to stop them fleeing the market.

Leopard and his spots doesn't change.

 

[Mcivor]

Eoin O'Broin / SF are on record multiple times pressing the govt to remove intention to sell as a legitimate ground for ending tenancies and that rental properties - houses and apartments could only be sold with tenants in situ. Now Eoin is claiming there is really nothing to be done to stop landlords leaving the market!! Have SF changed their mind on this now, or more likely Eoin has been told to play down this policy as it is one of the factors causing landlords to exit the market, or hopefully it's unconstitutional. If so he should be upfront and say this.

SF are also on record as opposing property taxes on PPR properties and are probably the only left wing socialist party in Europe to support such a policy. Crazy stuff as this has served to widen the tax base and there are already exemptions in place for low earners on this tax. The wealthy have limited means to avoid this tax on their expensive houses. Where will the revenue shortfall come from if they get to implement this plan? From non PPR i.e. rental properties of course and landlords will find themselves paying multiples of current property tax on their rental property and probably still unable to claim tax relief on this payment.

In my opinion, the above SF policies that will likely be implemented if / when they get into power plus current high levels of taxation and ever increasing legislation is driving landlords out of the market

I'm not a regular Irish Times reader / Claire Byrne listener... but I have been around long enough to understand Eoin O'Broin's / SF policies and their subtext when I hear them and the likely impact on the 'wealthy' - whoever they are!

 

[PebbleBeach2020]

I've said this before. SF have their tactics bang on on this one. They object to planning developments even when they are all social and affordable housing, thus preventing/delaying the building of houses. This doesn't solve the current housing crisis, it doesn't increase supply and it makes SF more popular as a result of the government being seen as being ineffective in terms of fixing or alleviating the crisis.

Next, SF speak about three year rent freezes, landlords not being able to get vacant possession of their property etc and this is spooking the landlords in the rental sector as the moment. Very few landlords (non-corporate) are entering the rental sector as this time. Landlords are uncertain what SF would do, if they got into power no later than summer of 2025, so they are taking the opportunity now to give notice to tenants and sell up their rental property. As a result of this, supply of rental properties are being reduced and this is making an already difficult situation in finding accommodation, even worse again! And what happens when SF do this...............they become even more popular again because the public view the crisis as getting worse.

So in terms of political nous, SF advisors are spot on. It's making the crisis a whole lot worse and for current renters, there's a much higher chance of their home being sold by the landlord, but SF (if and when they are in government) will find only corporate landlords remain and they charge top dollar for their properties. Lets see SF house the tens of thousands of people on HAP then with the corporate sector the only ones there to take up the slack.

 

[AlbacoreA]

This isn't a tax issue.

Their policies simply increase the risk to a landlord to a point at which is not worth the hassle or risk.

If you want to decrease the income taken by landlords but still make it attractive to invest, then you have to balance this by decreasing the risk. That's the trade off.