Irish Government Bonds for the retail punter

Really?
What are you comparing to?


Im simply taking 59% of 3.7 = 2.183 v say the 2,5% which is locked in

an MMF has daily liquidity and the one quoted is a UCIT with just 0.11% fee (and no need to hold to maturity or at least 2 years for CGT tax free treatment )

but I agree with the Dukes reply etc
 
If gains on the underlying bonds are not liable to CGT for Irish residents, is the inverse also true, i.e. if one were to purchase the 5.40 per cent Treasury Bond 2025 at its current price of €102.873, is it not possible to offset the loss against other gains?
 
Some UK gilts may be worth considering.
.25% TB 2025 yielding 4.774% p.a. of which 4.5% p.a. is capital gain
.125% TB 2026 yielding 4.516% p.a. of which 4.4% p.a. is capital gain
.125% TB 2028 yielding 4.479% p.a. of which 4.3% p.a. is capital gain
Of course there is exchange rate risk.
Even with 33% CGT these are quite competitive.
Many may be like me, nursing bank share losses from the GFC and here we find a very rare animal - almost guaranteed capital gains.
I'll be going for TB 2025. The shorter term limits the exchange rate risk though increases the p.a. cost of commission. At maturity the other below par gilts should still be attractive.
 
Yes.

No.

In summary, madness.
I suppose you're right.
But for me with sterling expenditure (I'm an ex Nordie) it makes sense. Well not so much expenditure as I have always kept a bit in sterling as a sort of currency diversification. Up to now it has been in deposits and premium bonds, its going into gilts now.
 
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Hi all,

I have managed to to purchase some bonds (Ireland 2027, 0.2% coupon) via DeGiro since earlier in the year. Based on a price of .90015, .905 and .9036, I figure an annual rate of return of 2.82% 2.98% and 2.95% respectively assuming I hold it until 15 May 2027. This includes picking up the dividend for 2024, 2025, 2026 and 2027 and deducting all taxes and fees from Degiro (2.50 per annum plus the 9.00 in purchasing in three tranches).

Does this look right to you?

Best,

Opus2018.
 
Hi all,

I have managed to to purchase some bonds (Ireland 2027, 0.2% coupon) via DeGiro since earlier in the year. Based on a price of .90015, .905 and .9036, I figure an annual rate of return of 2.82% 2.98% and 2.95% respectively assuming I hold it until 15 May 2027. This includes picking up the dividend for 2024, 2025, 2026 and 2027 and deducting all taxes and fees from Degiro (2.50 per annum plus the 9.00 in purchasing in three tranches).

Does this look right to you?

Best,

Opus2018.
It depends when you purchased them, but the yields look ballpark. The yield on .90015 should be higher than on .905 and the fact it isn't is down to the dates of purchase. I attach a spreadsheet to enable you to do the calculations. I didn't put in any costs so that is up to you.
You done better than me and those fees are incredible - I paid Goodbody .40% commission plus their annual fee of €200 + VAT to open an account. But I am old fashioned, I just wouldn't feel comfortable with De Giro which I know is very irrational.
 

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It depends when you purchased them, but the yields look ballpark. The yield on .90015 should be higher than on .905 and the fact it isn't is down to the dates of purchase. I attach a spreadsheet to enable you to do the calculations. I didn't put in any costs so that is up to you.
You done better than me and those fees are incredible - I paid Goodbody .40% commission plus their annual fee of €200 + VAT to open an account. But I am old fashioned, I just wouldn't feel comfortable with De Giro which I know is very irrational.
Hi Duke,

Thanks for this - the middle one should have been .9005 rather than .905. My bad! I bought in July, early October and today.
To be honest, I am tired of dealing with Irish stockbrokers as the value simply isn't there. I used to use Campbell and O'Connor, but they are long gone now, sadly.. :(

To be honest, I think these are still worth pursuing so I'll be keeping a close eye on them in the meantime. ;)

Best,

Opus 2018
 
I just wouldn't feel comfortable with De Giro which I know is very irrational.
I don't think it's irrational when making a large purchase, especially since with DEGIRO you will purchase the Irish government bonds on the Frankfurt exchange, where they have 0 volume most days, compared to on the Irish stock exchange with a traditional broker, where the volume is in the millions. While the price is about the same whenever I check it, I can imagine that you might have to pay more than 0.4% higher than the ISE price for a large purchase. I dearly wish one of the discount brokers would allow you to purchase bonds on the ISE. Maybe if enough of us write to DEGIRO ([email protected]) to ask for it, it might happen.
 
Looking at the 3.40% Treasury Bond 2024 (IE00B6X95T99), maturity is 18th March 2024. Currently trading at €99.93. Am I right in saying that on the 18th March 2024 it will mature and repay €100 and pay a coupon the same day of €3.34 per unit? The diff between €100 and €99.93 is exempt of CGT and the €3.34 needs to be declared for income tax?

In theory if this was bought within a Ltd company, how would it be taxed?

 
Looking at the 3.40% Treasury Bond 2024 (IE00B6X95T99), maturity is 18th March 2024. Currently trading at €99.93. Am I right in saying that on the 18th March 2024 it will mature and repay €100 and pay a coupon the same day of €3.34 per unit? The diff between €100 and €99.93 is exempt of CGT and the €3.34 needs to be declared for income tax?

In theory if this was bought within a Ltd company, how would it be taxed?

I am not 100% sure on this.
I think the €99.93 is what's called a "clean" price. That means you have to pay accrued interest on top. Otherwise 3.4% over 5 months would look like over 7% p.a.; can't be right.
I think interest income for a company would be taxed at 25% and the capital gain would be tax free.
 
I am not 100% sure on this.
I think the €99.93 is what's called a "clean" price. That means you have to pay accrued interest on top. Otherwise 3.4% over 5 months would look like over 7% p.a.; can't be right.
I think interest income for a company would be taxed at 25% and the capital gain would be tax free.
Of course you are correct, that most be the case. I assume that you pay the accrued interest when you buy the bond?
Can you deduct that from the 3.4% for tax purposes?
 
Bought a French Govie today. Zero coupon maturing in Feb 2025. After .30% GoodBody commission it pays 3.07% p.a. before CGT. Even after CGT it beats deposits but as I said I am awash with carried forwards losses from AIB shares.
Although I am execution only, it was comforting to be talking to Goodbody people over the phone and I did make rather a mess of the bank transfer. So for me the 0.30% commission is fine. I just wouldn't feel comfortable with De Giro - can you talk to any De Giro folk about any problems?
 
.30% GoodBody commission
Did you negotiate them down from your earlier rate, or do they charge less on French government bonds?
Although I am execution only, it was comforting to be talking to Goodbody people over the phone
I would be grateful if you described the process. Do you call, identify yourself, say you want to place a limit order for a quantity X of CUSIP Y at price Z, ensuring that you have enough cash in your account to pay for that plus the Goodbody fee plus any accumulated interest on the bonds, and that's it? Since you found the experience comforting, does that mean that they are pleasant to deal with, rather than giving the impression that they regard "retail investors" with disdain?
 
Did you negotiate them down from your earlier rate, or do they charge less on French government bonds?
I did a bit of negotiation on my first deal which was an Irish govie which they dropped from .5% to .4%. I subsequently bought GB and French govies and .3% seemed to be the rate without any negotiation.
I would be grateful if you described the process. Do you call, identify yourself, say you want to place a limit order for a quantity X of CUSIP Y at price Z, ensuring that you have enough cash in your account to pay for that plus the Goodbody fee plus any accumulated interest on the bonds, and that's it? Since you found the experience comforting, does that mean that they are pleasant to deal with, rather than giving the impression that they regard "retail investors" with disdain?
You call and take option 1 - place a trade. Answered almost immediately on first name terms. You give your Goodbody reference number and a few personal details. I then simply asked them to buy as much of a particular govie as is in my cash account, which I will have topped up that day by an AIB to AIB transfer. I tell them the price that I am looking at on screen, just to make sure we are talking the same bond, but I give them no directions as regards limits. I have always (3 times does not make a summer, I guess) got at least as good as the price I saw on screen. Within about 20 mins I see the transaction has been enacted on my online dashboard. Stone age compared to De Giro, I know, but I do like the human touch, I am not a millennial.
There is always a residual amount of cash because of rounding. They don't take fees into account in this process. I have been charged once so far for the €246 annual fee and it left me in the red, but I just topped up by €200 to regularise matters.
 
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