Ireland is full.

There is an article in last Saturdays IT which may just mark the end of liberal Ireland.


Rather that engage with the obvious truth of the statement that Ireland is full, Conor Gallagher, the security correspondent ?, explains that the phrase originates with the far right and so must be shunned by all right thinking people.

If Ireland elects an extremist government at the next election, it will be the fault of the IT and RTE classes for not only refusing to engage with peoples opinions, but to pour scorn on them. To paint people as extremists who would never think of themselves as such.

And I hear about some people wishing for Conor McGregor for President.......oh my God the headline must be right

joer said:

And I hear about some people wishing for Conor McGregor for President.......oh my God the headline must be right

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No sensible person wants Conor McGregor for President and given our system for nominating candidates it is unlikely he could be nominated.

However, the roads are full, the hospitals are full and the schools are full. The headline is right, the issue is how we respond to that.

And yet the number of children in primary school is at it's lowest since 2017, we could fix the hospital crisis by creating more step down beds but we'd need to staff them, but guess where we need those staff to come from and we've never had a better road infrastructure.

cremeegg said:

If Ireland elects an extremist government at the next election, it will be the fault of the IT and RTE classes for not only refusing to engage with peoples opinions, but to pour scorn on them.

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We are one of the wealthiest countries on earth, we have a highly educated population, open and fair elections, press freedom consistently ranked among the best in the world, high internet access rates, minimal censorship, low corruption, etc.

If we end up with an extremist government then there is no-one responsible except the electorate.

arbitron said:

If we end up with an extremist government then there is no-one responsible except the electorate.

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I don’t agree.

As a country, we may be wealthy and certainly better than we were a few short decades ago.

But we have other problems. Housing and health are the two biggies.

I don’t think the general population have an issue with increased immigration but when they see their own children having little prospect of putting a roof over their head, perhaps their frustration with the Government’s open door policy is understandable.

People should be free to express these frustrations without being labelled as far right extremists and the government’s unwillingness to listen may be what eventually does if for them.

The government has an army of PR/press people across all departments whose job it is to put the required spin on things. They could usefully seek to address citizens concerns head on rather than shouting them down.

I think what's missing is the raw data from the government on the numbers of immigrants vis-a-vis other EU countries. If we have taken in less, then we should take in more, but if we have taken in more, we should take in less. Publishing this data would enable informed decision-making and not give fuel to those on either the far right or far left.

Firefly said:

I think what's missing is the raw data from the government on the numbers of immigrants vis-a-vis other EU countries. If we have taken in less, then we should take in more, but if we have taken in more, we should take in less. Publishing this data would enable informed decision-making and not give fuel to those on either the far right or far left.

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Data on the number of refugees from UKR is easily available, please see chart below:





Data on AS is trickier to find.

Protocol said:

Data on the number of refugees from UKR is easily available, please see chart below:

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Thanks for that. I would think nevertheless, that those on the far-right are more vocal against refugees with darker skin (even typing that feels so wrong). I would like to see the data for refugees from African countries & Syria for example via-a-vis those for other EU countries. It's a hunch, but I think we have had nowhere near the amount of refugees than the likes of Germany, Italy & France. Still, it would be helpful if the data was published.

AFAIK, there are two or three sources of refugees.

(1) the Temporary Protection scheme, this is for the people from UKR

(2) programme refugees - these are schemes run by the likes of the UN, where people abroad are selected, and are classified as refugees before they arrive here (this means they do not go through the asylum process in Ireland)

(3) people who travel here by their own choice, and apply for asylum, hoping to become a refugee


Data on all three types is published.



Here is the data on type 2: the IRPP


IRPP = 4,000 + 2,900 people

Background to the Irish Refugee Protection Programme​

• On 10 September 2015, as part of Ireland’s response to the migration crisis in central and southern Europe, the Government established the Irish Refugee Protection Programme (IRPP). Under this programme, the IRPP has seen the arrival of over 4,000 refugees under various resettlement strands, the largest of which is the UNHCR led programme.

• In December 2019, the second phase of the IRPP (IRPP II) was put in place to welcome up to 2,900 refugees through the UNHCR programme between 2020 and 2023 through a combination of resettlement and new community sponsorship initiatives. The new phase planned for 650 UNHCR resettlements in 2020, 700 in 2021, 750 in 2022 and 800 in 2023. This commitment was to be made up of a majority of Syrian refugees resident in Jordan and Lebanon.

• Significant challenges in meeting these targets over the course of 2020, 2021, 2022 with the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic on resettlement pathways, the IRPPs support for the arrival of almost 560 refugees from Afghanistan following the crisis in September 2021 and the challenges responding to the Ukraine crisis. Normal resettlement processes for the IRPP have now resumed.

• Ireland’s pledge for resettlement and humanitarian admission under Article 19 AMIF for 2023, along with forecasted resettlement numbers for 2024-2025 was submitted to the European Commission on 7 October. Ireland pledged to support the arrival of 800 refugees under the UNHCR resettlement process from Lebanon and Jordan, with a further 100 humanitarian admissions from Afghanistan.

Type 3 are the asylum-seekers, also known as IP applicants.

Here is some data:

Firefly said:

Thanks for that. I would think nevertheless, that those on the far-right are more vocal against refugees with darker skin (even typing that feels so wrong). I would like to see the data for refugees from African countries & Syria for example via-a-vis those for other EU countries. It's a hunch, but I think we have had nowhere near the amount of refugees than the likes of Germany, Italy & France. Still, it would be helpful if the data was published.

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Well I think of myself as centrist to centre-right, and I welcome refugees (although I think we have taken too many from UKR, 50k would be enough). However, I reject the AS, as most are making bogus claims.

arbitron said:

We are one of the wealthiest countries on earth, we have a highly educated population, open and fair elections, press freedom consistently ranked among the best in the world, high internet access rates, minimal censorship, low corruption, etc.

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These things are all true. We also have a semi official class whose voice is over represented in the media, especially RTE and the IT. Their unwillingness to engage in debate on major changes in Irish society and their tactic of branding those who question them as right wing is counterproductive.

The phrase 'Ireland is Full' may well have been dreamt up by political motivated people, but it resonates with people on hospital waiting lists and traffic jams.

Branding these people right wing shuts down debate and alienates people.

arbitron said:

If we end up with an extremist government then there is no-one responsible except the electorate.

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The electorate are not children and will have to live with the consequences of their choices, see Brexit, but the media has many roles to play in a democratic society, these include including challenging the establishment consensus, and treating issues in peoples lives and the responses people have to those issues seriously.

thedaddyman said:

And yet the number of children in primary school is at it's lowest since 2017,

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Excellent, someone willing to discuss the possibility that 'Ireland is Full'

Total enrolments in primary schools in 2022 stood at 558,143, an increase of 3,355 on 2021 when the total was 554,788. Over the twenty-year period 2002 to 2022 there was an increase of 114,423 (25.8%) in enrolments in primary schools (mainstream and special) and enrolments are projected to fall over the coming eleven years. Please note that enrolment data is fixed to the Census date of 30 September 2022, and accordingly, the recent, i.e., post Census date, enrolments of Ukrainian children are not included in these headline figures or the following analysis.

Source Department of Education Statistical Bulletin July 2023

thedaddyman said:

we could fix the hospital crisis by creating more step down beds but we'd need to staff them, but guess where we need those staff to come from and we've never had a better road infrastructure.

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We could if.

I could loose a stone if I gave up eating sweet things or maybe win the world championships, if I gave up my job and got serious about training. Lots of things are possible but if we have not made the efforts required to achieve them in a generation something more than 'we could if' is needed.

In fact over the last 15 years, rather than fix health we have screwed up housing.

Dept of Education is predicting a bubble going through the system with Primary having peaked already, secondry peak occuring and third level expected to peak in 2031- again the source is the Dept of Ed.

agree with what you are saying on health. If we weren't prepared as a society to fix it in the past, what difference is a few thousand more immigrants going to make to the desire to fix it now. And yet, some parts of it can do it right. Waterford Regional hospital being a case in point.

We have a low population density and a labour shortage. Despite the scaremongering there is no statistical link in this country between local increases in immigrant populations and crime. We should be encouraging working age single males to immigrate here as they are less likely to bring dependants and more likely to work in construction, which is where labour shortages are causing the most harm.

Much of the anti-refugee noise is coming from what I call the "Hands off our handouts" cohort. They are the people who are living off their neighbours through social transfers (welfare and housing) and are concerned that refugees will be competing for those resources. I would be happy to see a reduction in long term welfare payments to Irish people in order to provide more resources to refugees and asylum seekers. I don't subscribe to "look after your on first". Those who have grown up in this rich country with our good education system and extremely generous welfare system are less deserving of our charity (and long term welfare is charity) than those who have lost everything and have come here seeking to work and contribute and build a new life.

There's a housing shortage and affordability problem across most of the developed world. Anyone who thinks our one was caused by the actions of the Irish government is stupid.
We have one of the best funded healthcare systems in the world. The reason it functions so badly is down to the people who run it and work in it. That personal and structural incompetence is not a reason to stop taking in immigrants or refugees.

All that said I do agree that there is a liberal left wing establishment who wring their hands about the "far right". They accuse anyone who is in any way right of centre of being far right while ignoring our far left politicians and far left journalists. When articles in the Irish Times are published accusing FG of being Neo-Conservative that paper loses all credibility. RTE News hasn't had any journalistic credibility in decades, if ever, as it's an agenda driven organisation.

cremeegg said:

and traffic jams.

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Are you suggesting one of the biggest problems here is all these immigrants coming here for handouts then driving their big cars around at rush hour????

Our traffic problems are a result of our wealth making cars more affordable and our failure to shift towards public transport (for multiple reasons).

Leo said:

Are you suggesting one of the biggest problems here is all these immigrants coming here for handouts then driving their big cars around at rush hour????

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If you look back you will see that I have never mentioned immigrants nor immigration.

I am suggesting that we have serious issues in this country. The hospitals, schools, roads and housing infrastructure are all under pressure.

The effects of immigration on these for good or ill are topics a serious country would discuss, along with tax policy, efficiency of public expenditure, the structure and profile of the workforce etc. instead we have people burning accommodation centres and journalists seeking to close down all discussion. I don't expect the arsonists to contribute much to the public debate, but I am very frustrated by the failure of the media and indeed political class.

cremeegg said:

If you look back you will see that I have never mentioned immigrants nor immigration.

I am suggesting that we have serious issues in this country. The hospitals, schools, roads and housing infrastructure are all under pressure.

The effects of immigration on these for good or ill are topics a serious country would discuss, along with tax policy, efficiency of public expenditure, the structure and profile of the workforce etc. instead we have people burning accommodation centres and journalists seeking to close down all discussion. I don't expect the arsonists to contribute much to the public debate, but I am very frustrated by the failure of the media and indeed political class.

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Since most working age asylum seekers who are allowed to work do work and since labour supply is the biggest constraint on the economy it seems to me that asylum seekers mitigate those issues rather than exacerbate them.
Maybe if the under educated scroungers who are out protesting against them actually got a proper job and contributed to society and the economy it would improve things.

cremeegg said:

If you look back you will see that I have never mentioned immigrants nor immigration.

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But you said the phrase Ireland is full resonates with people in traffic jams. The Ireland is full phrase is only being used in the context of limiting immigration.

Car use is linked to employment and wealth, are you suggesting some of those sitting in traffic jams for whom the phrase resonates are hoping for a reduction in those measures?

Those on hospital waiting lists should be screaming out for more immigration not less. Without immigrants our health service would crumble.