Invalid lease?

I'll try keep this problem as brief as I can.

I'm the landlord of what I used to term a 'cheap and cheerful' house. Last 4 years however, the area has only interested social-welfare recipients (no problem there; am unemployed myself for some time).

Rented out house early Nov - for one month in advance and one month's rent as deposit to a young girl and boyfriend (mother-in-law accompanied them). Understanding was they would apply for SW. Also they should have changed over light & heat into their names - bills continue in my name. (Needless to say lights/radiators on but all windows open)

No rent received in Dec, despite arranging dates/times to collect. I rang Social Welfare - they advised that NO claim for rent supplement has been received. Further, additional persons were added to the lease in SW's possession i.e. I filled out two lease-agreements between myself and Mr. X and Ms. Y handing them one original and keeping the other for myself.

The SW's copy has more tenants listed on the agreement!

So, am I correct when I say they don't have a valid lawful lease ?

Can I just enter my house and get rid of them?

Kildavin said:

I rang Social Welfare - they advised that NO claim for rent supplement has been received.

Further, additional persons were added to the lease in SW's possession

Click to expand...

Oh dear this doesn't look like it's going to end well. No you cannot just enter the house and take it back as you will get into big trouble with the PRTB. You could do it and take that risk, but know what the risk is first. Your tenants are playing you it seems to me.

The above two points I've 'quoted' are contradictory. How do SW have a lease if no claim has been made for rent supplement.

Re the ESB you need to sort this pronto. You're looking at a large bill there and based on what you've posted you are not going to be able to recoup this from these tenants. I'm not sure if you can just ring up the ESB and cancel the account, or whether you're allowed to do it under PRTB rules, another landlord might be better with the current ESB/PRTB rules on switchovers. Did you do a meter reading with the tenant and did you get them to fill out a form for the switchover.

You and the tenants signed leases - they are almost certainly valid unless there are any clauses contrary to the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, and then, only those clauses that contravene the Act.

"Can I just enter my house and get rid of them? "

Click to expand...

You can - if you are willing to have a claim against you by the tenants for illegal entry and disruption of their peaceful enjoyment of their home which could be from anywhere between 1,000 and 10,000 euro.

Without knowing more, (e.g. what type of lease - fixed term, how long, or Periodic?).

If you have a fixed term lease, I would suggest that your first course of action would be to issue a 14 day notice of termination for rent arrears. There is a sample (with notes) on the PRTB website. Again, I assume that you have registered the tenancy with the PRTB.

If the tenants fail to pay all rent arrears, within the 14 days, then immediately follow up with a Notice of termination which will give the tenants up to 28 days more in your property - if they move out.

The laws for eviction for of a Periodic (and Part 4) lease are slightly different.

I haven't yet registered with the PRTB - the (agreed) lease was signed/dated 10 November.

Can they produce a fraudulent lease to support whatever case they have? Does the fact that its so quickly after the lease was first entered into mean anything?

The SW people report that it looks very likely that their only lease - the fraudulent lease is with them - I doubt they've retained a copy for themselves.

The lease is with the SW as they 'moved' in someone - this is the first extra addition which altered the lease. They require some form of SW, but apparently no claim for Rent Supplemental relief has been submitted - the SW person had even called to the house in person and nothing about Rent Supplemental relief/claim was mentioned. I had signed these forms in the presence of the tenant!

Kildavin said:

I haven't yet registered with the PRTB - the (agreed) lease was signed/dated 10 November.

Can they produce a fraudulent lease to support whatever case they have? Does the fact that its so quickly after the lease was first entered into mean anything?

The SW people report that it looks very likely that their only lease - the fraudulent lease is with them - I doubt they've retained a copy for themselves.

The lease is with the SW as they 'moved' in someone - this is the first extra addition which altered the lease. They require some form of SW, but apparently no claim for Rent Supplemental relief has been submitted - the SW person had even called to the house in person and nothing about Rent Supplemental relief/claim was mentioned. I had signed these forms in the presence of the tenant!

Click to expand...

I now follow as to why you think the lease is fraudulent - the two prospective tenants signed your lease - the tenant's copy was subsequently altered before being presented to the SW as part of their claim for rent allowance. Correct?

Your copy is still valid - the tenants are trying to get RA fraudulently - not your problem except that RA is unlikely to be approved.

Furthermore, the tenants may be breaking the lease by having more people residing in the property than are mentioned in the lease.

You have not stated where you got your lease or if it was something you made up yourself.

As regards the utilities bills, as Bronte says, you need to get that sorted pronto or you could find yourself with very large bills. You need to have the meter readings from when the property was first let. Was it stipulated in the lease that the tenants had to transfer the utilities into their name?

Any kind of action outside the parameters of the law in trying to evict the tenants could cost you dearly. Just recently, a landlord was fined 30k for allowing his tenants to act in an anti-social manner.

Who would want to be a landlord - being a landlord is NOT the easy option that many people think it is.

Just on a side note - you may well see your property being trashed and the tenants over-holding for a long time and living in your property rent free.

facetious said:

Was it stipulated in the lease that the tenants had to transfer the utilities into their name?

Click to expand...

I would never ever leave it to a tenant to transfer the utilities to their name,if they are in any way bogey there is no incentive for them to do it,quite the opposite in fact,any bills ran up in Landlords name are the Landlords responsibility.

facetious said:

Who would want to be a landlord - being a landlord is NOT the easy option that many people think it is.

Click to expand...

Never a truer word spoken,the hard road for the old dog.

Great advice as usual from facetious!

As you are unfortunately not registered with the PRTB, you could end up in all sorts of hot water should your tenants take a case with them against you. You are required to register within 1 month of the date of the commencement of the tenancy. You can register late, but there's a fine

facetious said:

If you have a fixed term lease, I would suggest that your first course of action would be to issue a 14 day notice of termination for rent arrears. There is a sample (with notes) on the PRTB website.
If the tenants fail to pay all rent arrears, within the 14 days, then immediately follow up with a Notice of termination which will give the tenants up to 28 days more in your property - if they move out.

Click to expand...

If any part of the rent remains outstanding, i.e. if they owe you €400 and pay €300 within the 14 day notice period, you are legally entitled to continue with the eviction process if any of the outstanding rent, listed as due in the 14 day notice, remains unpaid. Here's a sample 14 day notice.

Follow it up as facetious says with a 28 day notice to terminate the tenancy - sample here.

Watch out for the exact wording on the notices and the dates (14 days and 28 days start the day after the notice is served and finish at midnight on the last day of the notice), if you're not sure give them an extra day for each notice.

Hand deliver them to the tenants and have someone with you to witness the delivery.

Hopefully they'll leave within the notice period, but get the electricity transferred to them asap.

Thanks to all.

Update:- I drafted a Notice of Termination of Lease following the PRTB guidelines. There were other grounds in the lease-document entitling me as landlord to terminate the lease, other than rental-arrears - which meant I didn't have to give the two-weeks pay-up-period.

And as the duration of the lease was less than 6-months, I didn't have to spell the reasons for them leaving in my Notice - although I did tell my witnesses (namely the non-payment of utilities).

My Notice stipulated the minimum notice-period 28 days but in all verbal communications I said I'd like them to leave within 7 days. My witnesses, two on-duty Gardai, were present for all of this and were present while I took photos of every thrashed room.

Will transfer ESB etc tomorrow/over the week-end. Question:- what are the implications of me doing this while pretty sure that the bill won't be paid by the (leaving) tenants, and then me taking the bills back into my name next week/month? Won't a deposit be required?

How did you get into the house? Are you afraid of the tenants? (Garda presence) Did you fish for info from the Gardai on these tenants?

Re the ESB, normally a houseowner doesn't have to pay a deposit, I never have. But these utility companies can be tricky. And they have been tightening up their rules due to the amount of non payers, and I couldn't fault them for that. I don't think you're going to be able to tranfer the account as I don't believe the tenants will agree to it.

Next week is very difficult to get people out. Do you think they will go? I'd be thinking of bribing them. Call there on the 7th day and if they are not leaving offer then a couple of hundred, cash if they pack up and go then. Cash handed over when they give you the keys. Remember they need money to find somewhere else. But witness everything. You might be lucky, very lucky if they actually leave. But they have nothing to lose now. I've my fingers crossed for you.

This might be of interest for the rules on ESB, I just telephoned Bord Gais with a meter reading and asked about the rules.

If I transfer my account into a tenant's name it can be done over the telephone, no signature of tenant required. They then send a welcome pack to the tenant who has to pay 300 Euro deposit, or 200 if they pay by direct debit. If they don't pay for a couple of months and get cut off, then I would have to pay the unlock fee of 140 Euro.

I asked what would happen if the tenant transferred the account into my name by telephone, which is easily done, no way to stop this apparently. That's why I have some bills in my name and keep a watch on any new tenants. And any bills that went to the property would be destroyed by the tenant's no doubt.

I also try to get a 'home' address and work address for tenants. And if they do a bunk on bills I have informed ESB of these addresses and the telephone numbers of the tenants.

OP should telephone the ESB to find out their rules, it would be helpful to have them for others on here.

Bronte said:

I'd be thinking of bribing them. Call there on the 7th day and if they are not leaving offer then a couple of hundred,

Click to expand...

I could never do that,I wouldn't give trash like that one red cent,you are essentially rewarding them for failure to pay you rent owed,running up massive utility bills and destruction of your property.

No doubt they will then rinse and repeat at the next unfortunate who they rent a property off.

The real problem here and in every case like this is the ineffectiveness and bias of the PRTB towards its treatment of Landlords,this cannot be allowed to continue,we are paying them millions a year for a service that it not even remotely fit for purpose.

Enough is enough.

Kildavin said:

Thanks to all.

Update:- I drafted a Notice of Termination of Lease following the PRTB guidelines. There were other grounds in the lease-document entitling me as landlord to terminate the lease, other than rental-arrears - which meant I didn't have to give the two-weeks pay-up-period.

And as the duration of the lease was less than 6-months, I didn't have to spell the reasons for them leaving in my Notice - although I did tell my witnesses (namely the non-payment of utilities).

My Notice stipulated the minimum notice-period 28 days but in all verbal communications I said I'd like them to leave within 7 days. My witnesses, two on-duty Gardai, were present for all of this and were present while I took photos of every thrashed room.

Will transfer ESB etc tomorrow/over the week-end. Question:- what are the implications of me doing this while pretty sure that the bill won't be paid by the (leaving) tenants, and then me taking the bills back into my name next week/month? Won't a deposit be required?

Click to expand...

Although you have it in the lease, it still may not be legal if it takes away the rights of the tenant.

If you used standard (Irish) lease downloadable from several websites and used that with out adding any clauses,no problem. However, if you have used one of these leases and added some clauses yourself, these clause may not be legal if they are contrary to the RTA 2004.

You can, of course, add a break clause, but it must be worded very carefully and not take away from the tenants rights nor give you, as landlord any advantage over the tenant than you are making for yourself.

Tread very carefully. These may be "professional tenants" who know their rights and will no doubt make a claim against you (with the help of Threshold) for damages.

Bronte said:

This might be of interest for the rules on ESB, I just telephoned Bord Gais with a meter reading and asked about the rules.

If I transfer my account into a tenant's name it can be done over the telephone, no signature of tenant required. They then send a welcome pack to the tenant who has to pay 300 Euro deposit, or 200 if they pay by direct debit. If they don't pay for a couple of months and get cut off, then I would have to pay the unlock fee of 140 Euro.

I asked what would happen if the tenant transferred the account into my name by telephone, which is easily done, no way to stop this apparently. That's why I have some bills in my name and keep a watch on any new tenants. And any bills that went to the property would be destroyed by the tenant's no doubt.

I also try to get a 'home' address and work address for tenants. And if they do a bunk on bills I have informed ESB of these addresses and the telephone numbers of the tenants.

OP should telephone the ESB to find out their rules, it would be helpful to have them for others on here.

Click to expand...

I rang Bord Gais - and they have no problem switching over the Gas upon proof of residency (copy of lease) but cannot switch over the electricity to a tenant on the say-so of a third-party (me/landlord).

What are the ethics of switching over the Gas to my tenant knowing they're likely not to pay ? And me ringing Bord Gais in a week/fortnight switching it back into my name ? (While I was there with the Gardai - can you think of better witnesses? - all the heat/every light was on full-blast with windows open, and curtains pulled down)

Kildavin said:

but cannot switch over the electricity to a tenant on the say-so of a third-party (me/landlord).

Click to expand...

I have never heard of that before,anytime I have new tenants there has never been a problem with me putting their names on the electricity,ring them back and hopefully a different rep will transfer them over for you,failing that transfer the electricity to a different utility provider,you will need to provide them with the meter reading you took when the tenants moved in and job done,the tenants will receive a bill for all their usage.

Kildavin said:

While I was there with the Gardai - can you think of better witnesses? - all the heat/every light was on full-blast with windows open, and curtains pulled down.

Click to expand...

Were your tenants there during the visit, did they let you in or did you enter with your own key? According to the RTA 2004, you are only allowed to enter with the tenant's permission.

Surprised that the Gardai went into the property with you - I was lucky enough to have them accompany me to serve an eviction notice to a tenant earlier this year, but they wouldn't enter the property.

Absolutely only entered with permission, and asked permission to see each room. Both askings were with the Gardai present. They stressed they were just there as witnesses and had no act/part to play in proceedings - - but psychologically it puts the tenants on the backfoot, knowing there's no hesitation to call the cops and that the cops were there while I took photos of the house.

Will try other electricity providers. I suspect problem might be that I've had other troublesome tenants in the past i.e. they were grand paying me but unknowing to me, they ran up big utility arrears - I wonder if the house is blacklisted.

(All the foregoing makes it sound like I'm some form of slum-landlord; that house was the best on the street about 7-8 years ago but it 'went wrong' in the last 3 years with bad tenant succeeding bad tenant etc.)