Inlaw's Splitting...what happens with property...

A

ash26

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Hi All

Hoping someone out there can give some idea of what will happen here. My partners parents are in the process of legally separating after 30 years of marriage, they currently jointly own 3 irish properties and 1 overseas property.

The mortgages on them are as follows;

Property 1(Family Home) - €40,000
Property 2(Rental Property) - €130,000 (remortgaged for overseas property)
Property 3(Rental Property) - €250,000
Property 4(Overseas Property)

My MIL isnt the easiest woman to deal with and is making this situation very hard, she has now decided that she will take the family home and the overseas property and leave my FIL with the other 2 rental properties, he will have to live in property 3 so there will be no rental income from here. She also thinks that she won't have to pay anything towards the mortgages, this is what i want to find out. Because all properties are in joint names isn't she liable for the monies owing even if they split? She is in a very well paid secure job and my FIL is unemployed so the only income he has is from the rent in property 2 after the mortgage is covered.

I would really appreciate some advice on the situation.

Thanks
 
I am def not involved just want to find out what will happen so i can put my partners mind at ease.
 
ash26 said:
MIL has now decided that she will take the family home and the overseas property and leave my FIL with the other 2 rental properties,
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Has she now. Well first thing this couple should try is mediation. To see if the marriage can get back on track. If not, and if she is a person who cannot be dealt with, then FIL needs to find a solicitor.

Whether or which, both people are jointly and severally liable for the mortgage, so MIL cannot decide that she, by taking the basically mortgage free properties has no further liability.

Even if you were in a divorce situation, no bank would accept title and mortgage to pass to FIL who has zero income.

What the couple need to do is find a solution that works for everybody. And that's not easy. I imagine FIL might be entitled to maintenance from the MIL.

Ideally he should seek out proper legal advice. But costs will be a lot less if everybody can agree beforehand, on who is to get what, and who is going to pay what.

To focus her mind, your FIL could try a tactic like this, 'I'll move into property 3, and pay zero mortgage, and the bank will come after you dear." The woman presumably very upset at the marriage breakdown, is not thinking clearly, but they as a couple need to reach a compromise.

Not sure, but FIL might be better off renting and living on the dole. The bank are not going to be chasing him. What's the property values?
 
Good advice from Bronte

The equity balance of all of the properties is key.
If there are no children living at home (under 18 of in full time education) then selling everything is an option.
 
Hi All

Thank you all for your replies. I do think it is time that my FIL appoints a solicitor. Would anyone know how you go about getting Free Legal Aid as he cannot afford a solicitor?

Thanks
 
ash26 said:
Hi All

Thank you all for your replies. I do think it is time that my FIL appoints a solicitor. Would anyone know how you go about getting Free Legal Aid as he cannot afford a solicitor?

Thanks
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No wonder this country is the way it is, four bloody houses and ye want the rest of us to pay for a solicitor for him:mad:
 
Surely the mortgages are only half the story. Without the valuations advice is not possible. One would imagine that the properties are either sold or divided so that they end up with the same amount of equity/negative equity.
Not an expert in the area.
 
Your FIL should take legal advice quickly on this one, so that he knows where he stands.

AFAIK, if your MIL has a good income, she will have to support him.

While she has a good income and while he is unemployed, it would be a good time for him to start the separation proceedings. A judge would presumably favour him in the distribution of the assets while he is unemployed.

The judge can award him or her sole ownership of the properties, but they can't interfere with the mortgage. The lenders will not allow her off the mortgages if she has the income.

Again, subject to legal advice - he should seek maintenance from her. If she refuses, he has no option but to collect the rent from the investment properties and use it for his legal costs and living expenses. Tell her to pay the mortgage. When the bank comes after her, she will have most to lose.
 
seantheman said:
No wonder this country is the way it is, four bloody houses and ye want the rest of us to pay for a solicitor for him:mad:
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I laughed when I read this, but I don't believe he's going to be entitled to legal aid.

Ash does your FIL have no income of his own. Generally a solicitor's initial consultation if free, and it does look like he needs one.

As another poster pointed out, you've given us no values for the properties, that would be very important. While we can only speculate on what a judge would rule, generally it would be that both parties can live apart, but sometimes there is not enough money to make this a comfortable living. So most people would be well advised to agree amongst themselves on who is to live where and who is to pay for living expenses.
 
ash26 said:
Because all properties are in joint names isn't she liable for the monies owing even if they split?
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The million dollar question in this particular sub-forum! :confused:

Jointly and severally liable for a mortgage as your parents-in-law are, means that they undertook when signing the mortgage that in the event that one of them was unable to pay their half, the other person would pay 100%. So if one of them can't or won't pay, the other has to pay. That's in theory.

In practice no-one has to pay anything, you can just stop and let the banks repossess the house(s). Or hopefully - before it gets to that stage the aggressive party cops on and starts being reasonable. Just stopping to pay the mortgage - (because it is in joint names, and because one person has no money and can tell the bank this) - ensures that the bank will start calling/chasing the person who does have money - in this case your MIL. So your FIL could use this as a tactic to focus her mind.

Considering the mortgage on property 2 is in effect a mortgage on the overseas property, it's absolutely outrageous that your MIL thinks she can take the overseas property and leave your FIL paying off that mortgage! It sounds like an extremely bitter breakup and no doubt, the whole story sounds like a post-Celtic tiger tragedy.

By the way -to summon someone to court for maintenance requires no solicitor and also doesn't require spending any money - my ex did that asap after she left me, I received the summons in the post! (nice). And we both represented ourselves. Maintenance hearings are in small family courts, and very short waiting time for your hearing. Basically you both bring along a statement of your income/expenditure, including the details of all the mortgages, and the judge decides what amount should be paid by whom to whom. That then becomes a maintenance order, which has to be obeyed or else it's breaking the law.

I presume your FIL was perhaps self-employed before? Which means at the moment he's entitled to no dole but eventually he will be. He should be aware that a maintenance order from a court is visible to the Dept of Social Welfare and obviously counts as income.

Regarding the free legal aid. I went along to my local Citzens Information Office, there was free legal aid there on a certain night of the week. You queue up with all the other people and hopefully you get a short audience with the solicitor. So if your FIL goes along for that, tell him to have a sheet with him with all the relevant house values, amount of mortgages and rent to maximise the time with the solictor. As for applying for ongoing free legal aid, that I'm not so sure about but it is means tested and there is a waiting period. I presume any cases involving young kids get priority? Which doesn't sound like this one does.
 
Hi All

Thank you very much for all your replies. My FIL has no income and hasnt had one for approx 2 years, he was self employed for over 20years but lost it all in the recession and because of being self employed his is not entitled to the dole.

The valuations on the properties are as follows:
Property 1) €400,000
Property 2) €180,000
Property 3) €90,000
Property 4) €120,000

I personally think he would be better off going to a solicitor instead of going down the legal aid route especially if their first consultation is foc. I need to look into this for him. She has now asked for maintenance of €100 pw knowing full well he has no income, i think she is living in the clouds.
 
At a very quick glance how about: Sell the overseas property and put the money against the mortgage on property 3. Leave Property 2 alone as the rent exceeds the mortgage so that's paying itself off plus providing some income to your FIL. Only thing is can your FIL afford all the other costs associated with being a landlord like property tax, house insurance, mortgage protection, maintenance of the house etc?

Tell him to look up the website selfemployedsupports. It's a whole website dedicated to self employed people and qualifying for Jobseeker's Allowance.

As long as he was living with his partner, her income would have counted in his means test but that is not the case anymore. Also the fact that he owns properties will be assessed but they deduct the mortgage from the value of the property before assessing it as capital.
 
ash26 said:
Property 1(Family Home) - €40,000
Property 2(Rental Property) - €130,000 (remortgaged for overseas property)
Property 3(Rental Property) - €250,000
Property 4(Overseas Property)

Property 1) €400,000
Property 2) €180,000
Property 3) €90,000
Property 4) €120,000
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Would ideally like the rents, the mortgage, the interest rate and term. Are their kids living in Property 1. Looks like propety 1 & 4 should be sold. MIL can not expect that she lives in a lifestyle to which she has been accustomed while FIL lives in penury. If possible both should have reasonable accommodation for their needs and an income that will keep both of them.

I presume property one is a fine 3 bed house? What is property 2 & 3?
 
Lucuma said:
Tell him to look up the website selfemployedsupports. It's a whole website dedicated to self employed people and qualifying for Jobseeker's Allowance.

.
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Lucuma

That's a great website. I have made it a Key Post in both Social Welfare and Askaboutbusiness forums.

I am amazed I hadn't heard of it before. Is it new?

Brendan
 
ash26 said:
he was self employed for over 20years but lost it all in the recession and because of being self employed his is not entitled to the dole.
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That's not true. Job seekers assistance is available to everybody, whether they were self-employment. It is means tested, so if he (or previously the family) had other income, he wouldn't qualify.

If he is no longer in that family unit, he'll be assessed based on his own means.
 
Lucuma said:
I went along to my local Citzens Information Office, there was free legal aid there on a certain night of the week. You queue up with all the other people and hopefully you get a short audience with the solicitor.
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Yes, it is free legal advice as opposed to aid.
 
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