Indo - "Revenue is chasing tens of thousands of pensioners over owed tax"

In the previous trawl in 2012, the targets included PAYE workers. I know of at least two who had to pay back taxes and penalties on their contributory state pension income
 
Dr Strangelove said:
I suspect the 68,000 are only self-assessed (ie non-PAYE) over-65s whose credits and bands aren’t automatically adjusted like the majority who are PAYE.
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All the commentary on the radio and paper this morning specifically refers to those in receipt of an occupational pension in addition to a state pension. Regardless of being self-employed, once you're in receipt of an occupational pension, you would have a "PAYE" source income (which would not be paid gross)?

Is this really about a Revenue notification to customers to let them know that they did not deduct the appropriate tax as they should have, and it'll now be corrected?
 
Ignorance is bliss, until Revenue comes knocking on your door.

Financial literacy isn’t great in this country. I know of
1. One individual, in their 20’s, who treats ETFs gains as CGT
2. Two individuals who invest in crowdfunding projects, with up 14.5% returns, who are oblivious to the taxable gains, notwithstanding the crowdfunding entities who make no mention of the tax obligations. And
3. Pensioners, who treat their contributory pension as a tax free add-on to their occupational pension.

Am feeling quite a fool when doing my yearly tax return, making sure that everything is right, while others do no return and live the life of Reilly.

Revenue have a public relations job to do here, maybe we need an Uncle Sam tax return approach, everyone has to do their annual tax return.
 
Protocol said:
Has a pensioner actually stated this to you?
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He asked me to look at his tax return. What could I say to a widowed 80 year old man…….so yes, he didn’t know and I didn’t point it out.

When you are that age, agencies such as the DSP should be more than able to do that taxable element.

it’s totally unreasonable to expect pensioners and those with diminished cognitive abilities to know what taxes need to be declared and how to do it.

Tax code in this country needs an overhaul, some tax payers know what they need to do, many simply do not or don’t want to know.
 
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There is a cohort of people afraid of tax and any officialdom. Not necessarily age related but the move to online systems has probably made it more likely than not elderly folk are out of the loop.
Fear and ability plus a belief that pensions aren’t taxable.
However as I mentioned above they are usually spending lots on medical, aside from those with full medical cards.
So it required a taxpayer in receipt of the pension to log in and add any other bits, such as medical… and submit.

I think the signing up and logging in aren't going to happen.

Can you still do a paper return? (I know the answer is probably in one of the links above but I’ve only had one coffee so far today)
 
Annieindublin said:
There is a cohort of people afraid of tax and any officialdom. Not necessarily age related but the move to online systems has probably made it more likely than not elderly folk are out of the loop.
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The way Revenue implemented "PAYE modernisation" (and I use those quote marks deliberately) in 2019 greatly compounded this problem. The issuing of an annual P60 to every worker and occupational pensioner at the very least kept them abreast of their earnings, tax deductions, PRSI stamps and tax credits for each year. Now that is abolished, many are in the dark.

It's notable that the UK adopted similar "PAYE modernisation" some years earlier but didn't scrap P60s.
 
Some pertinent posts from @T McGibney and @Annieindublin where they hit the nail on the head. Many older people take to officialdom with a kind of fear. They need Revenue on their case like they need syphylis. Then add in the on-line aspect and you have disillusion and confusion. These older people probably have family and friends and to be honest filing an on-line fax return usually is simple. So, ask your parents if they need some assistance regarding Revenue. Suddenly, youcould be their best friends too.

Newsflash! Revenue should and must chase people. That’s why they’re there.
 
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We all know the government is swimming in money with all the corporation tax still flowing in (but for how long) , so the drive to find people not paying their full tax like pensioners is not strong. What happens in a few years when the full effects of trump tariffs start really hitting corporation tax receipts? Will revenue then be chasing all those pensioners and others not submitting a tax return or paying their full tax? Will they impose punitive penalties like they do on small businesses?
 
Leper said:
Revenue should and must chase people. That’s why they’re there.
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No.

Revenue are there to administer and collect taxes on behalf of the State, not to chase, harass nor threaten elderly citizens.

If and whenever Revenue find themselves doing the latter, just because the elderly citizens are, surprise surprise, in receipt of bog-standard State old age pensions, that is a sure and certain sign that there is something fundamentally wrong either with their own processes, or those of the department of State that pays out those pensions, or both.
 
Nordkapp said:
He asked me to look at his tax return.
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Maybe your experience could be representative of what is going on here and will clarify the situation a bit more.

So you looked at his tax return, online? The DSP pension was there and the tax wasn't deducted, like it should have been? If so, was there an action that should have been taken that wasn't? Or the pension was not there, revenue did not have the details and should have been declared?

Or was the return a paper return and the DSP not declared?

Its not clear to me how he was "treat[ing] their contributory pension as a tax free add-on to their occupational pension"?
 
Itchy said:
The DSP pension was there and the tax wasn't deducted
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What about the previously mentioned (several times) automatic reporting of the pension by DSP to Revenue, and the automatic reduction by Revenue of the taxpayer's red credits which should effectively deal with any income tax liability (whatever about USC if applicable - PRSI presumably shouldn't be a factor for over 66s in receipt of a state pension?)?
 
ClubMan said:
What about the previously mentioned (several times) automatic reporting
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Hence the question. I'm trying to clarify that the automatic reporting took place. If it did and revenue did not adjust the credits, then that confirms my thesis that this is a Revenue mistake and not a taxpayer one (and should be acknowledged as such in the letter - though the tax will obviously have to be paid). And it will confirm that pensioners do not need to inform Revenue of a DSP OAP, inline with the guidance on their own website.
 
Dave Vanian said:
I was surprised that Charlie Weston made no reference in his article to the other big Revenue story of recent days... https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2025/0805/1527007-revenue-overpayments/
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His colleague seems to have covered this story...

Overpayments to Revenue staff hit close to €1.7m in 2023 with one in seven workers paid more than their salary

The value of salary overpayments to Revenue staff reached almost €1.7m at the end of 2023 as more than one in seven of its workforce got paid above their proper salaries, according to an internal audit,.
m.independent.ie
 
Itchy said:
that confirms my thesis that this is a Revenue mistake and not a taxpayer one (and should be acknowledged as such in the letter - though the tax will obviously have to be paid)
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Agreed.

The civilised way for Revenue to approach this in any normal circumstance is to admit as such and notify the taxpayer that their credits will be reduced for the next 2-3 years in order to recoup the tax underpayment.

The problem here is that this being Ireland, it is only now, three years on, that it has dawned on Revenue that these underpayments happened in 2022. So affected OAP's will by now owe money for 2022, 2023, 2024 and 2025.

What an utter mess this is, and what a mess their latest move has exposed.
 
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