Thanks NoRegretsCoyote. No we don't want to get into that type of drama.
I think your leaflets are a bigger drama.Thanks NoRegretsCoyote. No we don't want to get into that type of drama.
I'm curious as to why not? From what I can tell it's perfectly legal to contract a clamping firm in your situation.No we don't want to get into that type of drama.
Thanks RightWinger. It is true that the driver is not stealing in the way that Section 5(2) describes. After all, before and after they park there, the land is still the property of the management company.Section 5(2) of the Act might be a problem. You can't steal "land" and parking spaces are "land" for the purposes of law.
Thanks Fistophobia. The residents objected to this on the grounds that they are inconvenienced by having to get out of their cars every time they pass through the entrance.I would try a different and cheaper solution.
How about getting a big length of chain, hook it across the entrance., dont bother locking it.
That would be enough of a deterrent.
I know it's Ask About Law but this is a very esoteric. No one is going to understand this kind of legal argument make a voluntary donation to the management company.What we are talking about is theft of a service that the management company provides for the exclusive use of the residents, a service for which they paid when buying their apartments, and for which they still pay through annual management fees and contributions to the sinking fund. Section 4(1) states that "a person is guilty of theft if he or she dishonestly appropriates property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it." While the defence can argue that the primary intent of the driver is to get a free parking space, the inevitable consequence is that the owner is deprived of that parking space. Given that there are signs prominently displayed advising that it is private property, the driver's mens rea is clear.
Section 4(5) defines the word appropriates to mean "usurps or adversely interferes with the proprietary rights of the owner of the property", and defines depriving as "temporarily or permanently depriving". The driver who uses one of these private parking spaces without implied or explicit consent might reasonably expect to pay a price for taking this chance.
Thanks DannyBoyD. Think of it this way. If you come back from the beach with partner and maybe children, you are probably tired, maybe a little stressed from your day, but you are looking forward to getting into your car and heading home. Which would you prefer, a leaflet or a clamp?I think your leaflets are a bigger drama.
Thanks NoRegretsCoyote. There is no downside for us in using the leaflet approach. It costs nothing, there are no negative consequences if it does not work, and the upsides of success are great.I'm curious as to why not? From what I can tell it's perfectly legal to contract a clamping firm in your situation.
It might not be cost-effective and there would be some legal risk. But it would be for sure far more effective than leaflets.
You may well be right, but personally I think that (based on normal principles of statutory interpretation) Section 5, being an exclusionary section, overrides and limits the application of Section 4. In any event, as @NoRegretsCoyote pointed out, it's a somewhat esoteric argument. Can't imagine a Garda engaging with it, can you?Thanks RightWinger. It is true that the driver is not stealing in the way that Section 5(2) describes. After all, before and after they park there, the land is still the property of the management company.
What we are talking about is theft of a service that the management company provides for the exclusive use of the residents, a service for which they paid when buying their apartments, and for which they still pay through annual management fees and contributions to the sinking fund. Section 4(1) states that "a person is guilty of theft if he or she dishonestly appropriates property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it." While the defence can argue that the primary intent of the driver is to get a free parking space, the inevitable consequence is that the owner is deprived of that parking space. Given that there are signs prominently displayed advising that it is private property, the driver's mens rea is clear.
Section 4(5) defines the word appropriates to mean "usurps or adversely interferes with the proprietary rights of the owner of the property", and defines depriving as "temporarily or permanently depriving". The driver who uses one of these private parking spaces without implied or explicit consent might reasonably expect to pay a price for taking this chance.
Thanks Huskerdu. I will post updates. Two factors make me optimistic about this. First, the power of the bush telegraph. Bad news spreads fast and we hope that fewer people will take the chance of parking in our space. Second, human nature. Related to the first point, rather than risk being taken to court, we calculate that enough people will opt for the voluntary contribution to our management company to spread the word that we are serious about deterring illegal parking.The problem you are trying to solve is stopping them parking there in the first place.
A leaflet isnt going to make any difference to the parker at the end of the day at the beach, they already got away with it.
You need something that asks as a deterent when they are looking for parking.
A chain is the best very cheap idea. A fake clamp on a car and a very large sign might work.
I still think this is your best option. The residents either want a solution or not.Thanks Fistophobia. The residents objected to this on the grounds that they are inconvenienced by having to get out of their cars every time they pass through the entrance.
Thanks again RightWinger. Section 5 is not relevant to parking illegally. It deals with trustee malpractice, transfer of defective title and other unrelated matters.You may well be right, but personally I think that (based on normal principles of statutory interpretation) Section 5, being an exclusionary section, overrides and limits the application of Section 4. In any event, as @NoRegretsCoyote pointed out, it's a somewhat esoteric argument. Can't imagine a Garda engaging with it, can you?
On the other hand, it might deter some into compliance and it is indeed cheap.
If it were down to me, I'd get a rota of volunteers to block the gates with their own vehicles at the end of the day. They could move to allow residents to move in/out but not the trespassers. Do that a few times and the fear of it will have a mighty dissuasive effect
You want to stop people parking there in the first place; that's the point.Thanks DannyBoyD. Think of it this way. If you come back from the beach with partner and maybe children, you are probably tired, maybe a little stressed from your day, but you are looking forward to getting into your car and heading home. Which would you prefer, a leaflet or a clamp?
they can however decide it's not of sufficient importance to pursue or spend time on.The Gardaí cannot ignore a complaint when it includes prima facie evidence of law breaking.
Probably won't give a toss to be honest.They will at the very least make contact with the driver, who in most cases will not appreciate this.
Unlikely in my view; again the point is to dissuade, not prosecute after the fact.However, we calculate that very few drivers will risk allowing it to get this far, opting instead to make the voluntary contribution to our management company,
don't understand why you are giving yourself so much work, including a signed witness statement, photos of the warning signs and of the vehicle illegally parked, the context for making the statement, and copy of the notice issued to the driver.
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