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z104
Guest
Hi, How much should a solicitor charge to process ward of court forms in a straight forward case?
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Here is a question which is short and simple on its face, but which hints delicately at all sorts of hidden undercurrents. ( When the work of the lawyer is described as processing forms, it usually means that the work is held in relatively low esteem and the fees perceived to be high). I am afraid that I cannot answer the question other than to say:
1. It very much depends on the case
2. I doubt that there is any ward of court case which is straightforward - there is a lot of law and a lot of work involved in most such cases.
3. Unless I am misremembering, the solicitors bill in any event has to be submitted to and approved by the court.
1. It very much depends on the case
2. I doubt that there is any ward of court case which is straightforward - there is a lot of law and a lot of work involved in most such cases.
3. Unless I am misremembering, the solicitors bill in any event has to be submitted to and approved by the court.
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z104
Guest
1) Straight forward case, Mother has alzheimers,Family in agreement re: ward of court.
2) What is the procedure?, I make out that it's 5 signatures needed on 5 affidavits. 2 of these are for medical reports from 2 doctors.
The other 3 relate to the petitioner.
3) Approved by solicitors for solicitors- Rubber stamping of whatever is on the bill I would think
So can you tell me what the procedure is?
This kind of disparaging and misinformed comment regularly pops up on AAM. It always makes me smile wryly, since it often is the case that the person who makes the comment is actually asking for solicitors to volunteer information to help them. As it is in this case. It's my personal policy never to reply to these sorts of posts, at least not to give the information sought, although I do quite often reply and tell the OP why I am not helping. I should probably rise above it but sadly am not a saint.
One reason you can't get a straight answer may perhaps be that the solicitor has not done a Ward of Court application for a while ( or ever) and is not yet sure how much work will be involved.
There is much useful information on the websites of the Courts Service. See here, for example; http://www.courts.ie/offices.nsf/0/19111E254B2EF547802573D2006CCF26?OpenDocument
I note the following comment on that site:
"If a person considers that there are grounds for someone being made a ward of court that person should instruct a solicitor to take the necessary steps in this regard. Alternatively, if he does not wish to be involved in the application himself, he should write to the Registrar of wards of court asking that proceedings be instituted.
In either event, it will be necessary for the solicitor or the Registrar of Wards of Court, as the case may be, to be furnished with all available details in relation to the medical condition, next-of-kin, assets and income of the proposed ward."
Although I rather suspect that it willl probably save very little money, you will note that there appears to be the possibility of applying direct to the Wards of Court Office. Perhaps this is a course of action which would be more suitable in this case, given the apparent distrust of the solicitor already consulted (It is of course frustrating when you can't get a 'straight answer' but there is ( it seems to me) an underlying current of distrust here, coupled with a belief that the work done by the legal people should not be all that costly. Not a good basis for any solicitor\client relationship. If I thought a client of mine felt this way, I would want to refer them to somebody else for both their sake and mine)
The reality is that legal services are costly; lawyers charge heavily and there is no point in suggesting otherwise. It is the same in every functioning capitalist democracy. The more arcane the practice area, the higher the fees and the more impractical it is to give an accurate fee estimate at the outset.
There is much useful information on the websites of the Courts Service. See here, for example; http://www.courts.ie/offices.nsf/0/19111E254B2EF547802573D2006CCF26?OpenDocument
I note the following comment on that site:
"If a person considers that there are grounds for someone being made a ward of court that person should instruct a solicitor to take the necessary steps in this regard. Alternatively, if he does not wish to be involved in the application himself, he should write to the Registrar of wards of court asking that proceedings be instituted.
In either event, it will be necessary for the solicitor or the Registrar of Wards of Court, as the case may be, to be furnished with all available details in relation to the medical condition, next-of-kin, assets and income of the proposed ward."
Although I rather suspect that it willl probably save very little money, you will note that there appears to be the possibility of applying direct to the Wards of Court Office. Perhaps this is a course of action which would be more suitable in this case, given the apparent distrust of the solicitor already consulted (It is of course frustrating when you can't get a 'straight answer' but there is ( it seems to me) an underlying current of distrust here, coupled with a belief that the work done by the legal people should not be all that costly. Not a good basis for any solicitor\client relationship. If I thought a client of mine felt this way, I would want to refer them to somebody else for both their sake and mine)
The reality is that legal services are costly; lawyers charge heavily and there is no point in suggesting otherwise. It is the same in every functioning capitalist democracy. The more arcane the practice area, the higher the fees and the more impractical it is to give an accurate fee estimate at the outset.
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z104
Guest
Thank you MOB. I've asked a couple of solicitors and they more or less said ah shur it's not your money. As if this makes it ok to charge whatever they like.
At the end of the day I have my mothers best interests at heart so it does matter even though I will not be paying for it.
Can anybody confirm the procedure?
At the end of the day I have my mothers best interests at heart so it does matter even though I will not be paying for it.
Can anybody confirm the procedure?
Well that is just dreadful. There is no excuse whatsoever for that attitude and now I understand why you want to do it yourself.
Why don't you try and do it yourself through the the channel that MOB suggest but I'm not at all sure that it's that easy but others have done something similar (debt collection I believe it was) using AAM as a guide at each step. We might all learn something and that's no bad thing.
Bronte
In terms of difficulty and responsibility there is no comparison between a debt collection case and an application to have someone made a ward of court.
I would not recommend anyone embarking on a complicated legal procedure relying on replies to queries on these boards.
In terms of difficulty and responsibility there is no comparison between a debt collection case and an application to have someone made a ward of court.
I would not recommend anyone embarking on a complicated legal procedure relying on replies to queries on these boards.
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z104
Guest
Part of my point is that it's not a complicated case and that a lay person should be able to do the bulk of it with just a signatures from comm. of oaths or solicitor before a solicitor needs to be engaged therefore keping the cost down.
( Forms can be downloaded from wards office)
€10 per signature from a solicitor
Anyway, did more digging.Procedure so far is
1) Originating petition of inquiry - signed by solicitor/comm. of oaths & petitioner. Petition should state names & addresses of family members, Property, investments and debts
2) Affidavit of cerification- signed by solicitor/ comm. of oaths
3) Capacity assessments from 2 doctors
4) Affidavit signed by 2 doctors/ solicitor
5) sent to wards office in Dublin
6) Inquiry order sent to president of high court by wards office
7) Service papers will be sent to me to effect service
Does anybody know what usually happens after this?
( Forms can be downloaded from wards office)
€10 per signature from a solicitor
Anyway, did more digging.Procedure so far is
1) Originating petition of inquiry - signed by solicitor/comm. of oaths & petitioner. Petition should state names & addresses of family members, Property, investments and debts
2) Affidavit of cerification- signed by solicitor/ comm. of oaths
3) Capacity assessments from 2 doctors
4) Affidavit signed by 2 doctors/ solicitor
5) sent to wards office in Dublin
6) Inquiry order sent to president of high court by wards office
7) Service papers will be sent to me to effect service
Does anybody know what usually happens after this?
You are probably right Nuac but some people are very dogged and determined and can actually do things for themselves (I'm not necessarily referring to the OP here). The OP has had a bad experience with solicitors and now doesn't trust them so not a good way to be if you want them to act for you. He also has managed to seemingly get the right forms etc which is no mean feat.
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z104
Guest
Just to update. Final pieces of jigsaw fitting into place.
Turns out that I was being quoted in the region of 3000 to 5000 euro for submitting a ward of court application.
I work out that you can have it done ( in this case ) for less than €100
( The doctors will charge on top of this for the capacity report but at least you know what that will cost )
Forms can be downloaded, ( except for medical affidavit) from courts webpage .
The procedure is as follows.
1) Originating petition of inquiry - signed by solicitor/comm. of oaths & petitioner. Petition should state names & addresses of family members, Property, investments and debts
2) Affidavit of cerification- signed by solicitor/ comm. of oaths
3) Capacity assessments from 2 doctors ( CANNOT BE FROM SAME PRACTICE)
4) Affidavit signed by 2 doctors/ solicitor ( This template was difficult to find but ward office will send it to you if you aske them nicely )
5) sent to wards office in Dublin
6) Inquiry order sent to president of high court by wards office
7) Service papers will be sent to you (by wards office) to effect service ( You can serve the papers ) .Just get it affidavit of serving notice signed
8) Courts doctor visits potential ward
9) Case worker appointed by court
10)Committee is formed ( Normally one or 2 relatives )
The main reason for needing a solicitor (in this particular case) is to have a solicitor for the record in the eventuality that the wards house needs to be sold or any court orders that are sent out need to go to the solicitor on record.
Turns out that I was being quoted in the region of 3000 to 5000 euro for submitting a ward of court application.
I work out that you can have it done ( in this case ) for less than €100
( The doctors will charge on top of this for the capacity report but at least you know what that will cost )
Forms can be downloaded, ( except for medical affidavit) from courts webpage .
The procedure is as follows.
1) Originating petition of inquiry - signed by solicitor/comm. of oaths & petitioner. Petition should state names & addresses of family members, Property, investments and debts
2) Affidavit of cerification- signed by solicitor/ comm. of oaths
3) Capacity assessments from 2 doctors ( CANNOT BE FROM SAME PRACTICE)
4) Affidavit signed by 2 doctors/ solicitor ( This template was difficult to find but ward office will send it to you if you aske them nicely )
5) sent to wards office in Dublin
6) Inquiry order sent to president of high court by wards office
7) Service papers will be sent to you (by wards office) to effect service ( You can serve the papers ) .Just get it affidavit of serving notice signed
8) Courts doctor visits potential ward
9) Case worker appointed by court
10)Committee is formed ( Normally one or 2 relatives )
The main reason for needing a solicitor (in this particular case) is to have a solicitor for the record in the eventuality that the wards house needs to be sold or any court orders that are sent out need to go to the solicitor on record.
It is probably not correct to say that firms are charging €3000.00 to €5000.00 for such an application.
The practice I work for usually charge a profession fee of €750- €800 for these applications. However, the costs quickly mount up with court stamping costing €120 approx and doctors charging €400.00 approx for each medical report. Vat must also be charged on the professional fees and commissioner for oaths fees are also incurred so the gross cost would come in just below €2,000.00.
I suspect that OP will spend a minimum of 15 hours working on this application. Generally even items which sound simple on paper can involve a lot more work than one would imagine. For example, it may take a large volume of correspondence and telephone calls to get each doctor to prepare and forward their medical reports
The practice I work for usually charge a profession fee of €750- €800 for these applications. However, the costs quickly mount up with court stamping costing €120 approx and doctors charging €400.00 approx for each medical report. Vat must also be charged on the professional fees and commissioner for oaths fees are also incurred so the gross cost would come in just below €2,000.00.
I suspect that OP will spend a minimum of 15 hours working on this application. Generally even items which sound simple on paper can involve a lot more work than one would imagine. For example, it may take a large volume of correspondence and telephone calls to get each doctor to prepare and forward their medical reports
Niallers can you let us know where you got the documents and how did you find out what to do with each one, are they self explainatory etc. You mention at the bottom of your post that a solicitor is needed are you referring to the wards of court solicitor that can be appointed as per MOB's post and at no cost to you?
Did the quote you got for 3/5K include the stamping, outlay, medical reports and VAT? In other words was this just the fee?
You now know that stamping will cost 140 from Artois. I agree with him that there is going to be quite a bit of work involved in just getting all the bits and bobs done.
Has the commissioner for oaths fees gone up, they used to be 3 IEP?
Did the quote you got for 3/5K include the stamping, outlay, medical reports and VAT? In other words was this just the fee?
You now know that stamping will cost 140 from Artois. I agree with him that there is going to be quite a bit of work involved in just getting all the bits and bobs done.
Has the commissioner for oaths fees gone up, they used to be 3 IEP?
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z104
Guest
Hi Bronte,Artois
It did take 2 full days of my time but the way I see it, If i've saved 3k on solicitors fees that's an extra month or two my mum can stay in the nursing home.
Now that I've done the donkey work once I think I could do it in a much shorter time if it needed doing again. The difficult bit was finding out where the forms were and spending a bit of time reading up on which ones applied to my mother. They're self explanatory once you read them a few times coupled with the use of a dictionary
The 3k quote was just for the solicitors fee for his time. I understand that there will be outlay and the cost of the medical report is 200 euro per report.
Commisioners/Solicitor signatures cost 10 euro each . This was standard accross all the solicitors I phoned.
The forms except for the medical affidavit are available on www.courts.ie . If you email the wards office they will give you a template for medical affidavit.
It's moved on a bit from where I was, I was speaking with a solicitor who did some conveyancing for me in the past. ( I probably should have gone to him in the first place as he's a good guy) I told him what I was doing and what I had done and I asked him if he would do the ward of court application and be the solicitor on record for free if I gave him the conveyance on my mums house. ( we have to sell as we owe the nursing home for a couple of months )
He has agreed to do this so I think I will go down this route.
It did take 2 full days of my time but the way I see it, If i've saved 3k on solicitors fees that's an extra month or two my mum can stay in the nursing home.
Now that I've done the donkey work once I think I could do it in a much shorter time if it needed doing again. The difficult bit was finding out where the forms were and spending a bit of time reading up on which ones applied to my mother. They're self explanatory once you read them a few times coupled with the use of a dictionary
The 3k quote was just for the solicitors fee for his time. I understand that there will be outlay and the cost of the medical report is 200 euro per report.
Commisioners/Solicitor signatures cost 10 euro each . This was standard accross all the solicitors I phoned.
The forms except for the medical affidavit are available on www.courts.ie . If you email the wards office they will give you a template for medical affidavit.
It's moved on a bit from where I was, I was speaking with a solicitor who did some conveyancing for me in the past. ( I probably should have gone to him in the first place as he's a good guy) I told him what I was doing and what I had done and I asked him if he would do the ward of court application and be the solicitor on record for free if I gave him the conveyance on my mums house. ( we have to sell as we owe the nursing home for a couple of months )
He has agreed to do this so I think I will go down this route.
That's great you have found a solicitor you're happy with. At least you have shown some of us we can do things for ourselves if need be particularly if we cannot afford it.
It is a rather sad story in this day and age that a house has to be sold to care for your mother and even sadder that the savings of the cost of a ward of court case gives your mother 2 months extra in a nursing home.
It is a rather sad story in this day and age that a house has to be sold to care for your mother and even sadder that the savings of the cost of a ward of court case gives your mother 2 months extra in a nursing home.
Brendan Burgess
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As this thread contained offensive posts not in the spirit of Askaboutmoney, I am closing it.
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