How much for a Solicitor

[MollyGem]

My father died 2 years ago and my solicitor has taken this amount of time to transfer the deeds of the house from my father to me. How much should I expect to pay? My father's solicitor to his Will has already charged me €390.00. Which I thought was for all the probate office and the Land registery stuff. But he now tells me there's another bill?

He won't however tell me how much is involved and his on holiday for the next two weeks..... I feel I'm on a really nice ride up the river and oh look I've lost my paddle's... I'd love to know an average so I know he's really not taking me for a total ride.

Thanks
MG

 

[MOB]

Years ago there was a 'scale' of charges which was 3.5% on first IR£10k, 3% on next 10k and 2.5% on balance. For a straightforward probate, with a single large asset such as a house, this would be a very high charge today. Most solicitors (certainly most rural solicitors) would be charging a fee which might average at around 1% (and might not be explicitly linked to a percentage at all), less if the house were particularly valuable.

I have had probates which seemed straightforward to the beneficiaries, but in which the time I had to put in translated to a fee well in excess of the old 'scale', so it is not a cut and dried matter.

You should have received a letter setting out the approximate fees (or the basis of charge). If you are unhappy with the invoice when received, you can have it reviewed. Check out the Law society website.

 

[Askar]

Fee scales are in breach of competition law. Such breaches are a criminal offence under Irish law. These 'scales' pre-date the Competition Act 1991 (even though they were in breach of Article 81 of the EU Treaty). No fee quote should be based around a fee scale (though a colleague of mine looking for architectural services was constantly referred to RIAI fee scale).

Your Solicitor should have told you what the €390 bill was for in his/her invoice, or you should ask if you are unsure. You should also ask what the second bill will be for. It would then be easier to seek opinions as to whether these fees are reasonable.

 

[MOB]

"Fee scales are in breach of competition law. Such breaches are a criminal offence "

This comment might unintentionally mislead, and the comment that "No fee quote should be based around a fee scale" is wrong, in that it is too sweeping . Many solicitors, auctioneers, stockbrokers and others have their own scale of fees. There is nothing illegal about this. What IS illegal is for two or more service providers to agree between themselves that they will adopt a common scale of fees. This is indeed market rigging, and illegal. However, if you are dealing with a solicitor and he\she refers to his\her scale of fees, it does of itself not connote any illegality - it is merely a measure which that solicitor uses.

The Law Society - to their credit - have been quite regimental about this for a number of years. I have been at many meetings over the years attended by solicitors and chaired by Law Society personnel. Inevitably, some 'elder lemon' would raise the old chestnut that the younger members of the profession are 'undercutting' on conveyancing. Inevitably they would have been told:

"that is not something we can even discuss, we are in a free market; competition is here to stay; end of story"


The conventional view is that if a scale exists in a profession, it must of its nature be detrimental to competition. I am not 100% sure that I would always agree. For example, there can be a huge information asymmetry between client and architect. The client often has no real idea of even roughly what the service should cost. A scale of fees can help to establish a benchmark for the consumer. Price competition can still take place, in that most architects who still refer to the 'scale fees' in their profession will usually negotiate a percentage discount from this scale. However, as stated, the existence of a scale fee in the sense of being a scale promoted as a standard in a profession (or even in a locality) is regarded as illegal, and it will probably be stamped out in the construction industry as it has long since been in other areas such as the law.

 

[Askar]

I don't see how my posting could be misleading. I was responding to your posting about a 'scale' of charges. I would have thought that the type of scale I was referring to was obvious in the context of my overall comments.

The 'conventional view' which you refer to is in fact EU law and the position of the Competition Authority, at least when they were bringing cases in the late 1990s in relation to such activity by certain associations. Breach of competition legislation is also a criminal offence, however silly that may appear to some, especially in regard to criminalisation of abuse of dominance. Indeed, you appear to accept this as the current legal position. I am not aware of any examples where consumer welfare benefits from such activity, but perhaps, you might be able to provide some examples.

The information asymmetry you refer to is also known as moral hazard, where the expert (be it a professional, consultant or tradesman) has knowledge which the client does not have, and can leverage this knowledge for his/her financial gain.

It is my understanding of what you subsequently say is that a scale proposed by an association of profit maximising firms can be a reasonable indicator of costs for the consumer. IMO your argument in favour of fee scales could be applied to any service deemed complicated, and possibly misunderstands the nature and welfare enhancing effect of competitive markets, however imperfect.

IMO the consumer can gauge a knowledge of such costs by looking for a number of quotes and seeking a break-down of these quotes. This break-down will give scope of work covered by quote and, sometimes, hours to complete each activity in that scope. Also, the prospective customer can do such things as ask around from others who have availed of similar services, and get an idea of prices that have been paid in the market place for such services, as indeed is happening in this instance.

The cost of any professional service, IMO, present no greater or lesser challenges for the customer than any other professional service, and does not require the assistance of any price fixing or "benchmark" to help the unfortunate customer.

 

[MOB]

"I am not aware of any examples where consumer welfare benefits from such activity, but perhaps, you might be able to provide some examples."

There are many regulated markets, where the price charged to the consumer is on a scale and set by a regulator -utilities being the obvious one, taxis being another. I cannot say that consumer welfare always benefits from a regulated market with scale charges\fees, but clearly there are situations where the state does not wish to let free market economics determine price, and it is usually the case that this is justified at least in part on a perceived benefit to the consumer.

Some legal markets (Italy springs to mind) have scale fees for various legal services, set at state level and which have been approved (well, not struck down might be a better way of putting it) at EU level.

There has been some talk of introducing scale fees for court work here in Ireland. The initial discussions have their genesis in a review of legal costs. The proponents of fee scales are not in the legal profession, and the basis of the proposals is that such scales would operate to reduce legal costs. In the early stages of this debate, the legal profession have insisted that their fees should be left to the free market. There are cynical and misguided people out there who no doubt feel that whatever the lawyers want cannot be in the interest of the consumer!

While I do not believe that a fixed fee for a service is a good thing for the consumer, I do think that there are some situations where it would be helpful to the consumer if there were an easily accessible benchmark, against which the fees being charged could be measured in some approximate way. Shades of grey I suppose..