Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp problems!

T

Towger

Registered User
Messages
2,642
The Government is telling us to and [broken link removed] on insulating our attics. However this is leading to serious damp problems, even when their instructions are followed to the letter. What can we do about it?
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl

I wouldn't pay any attention to what the government says.
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl

Where are you getting the damp?

If it is in the attic, then you don't have any vents to let air flow through. There should be a vent where the roof meets the exterior wall.
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl

The older existing housing stock does not have vents and from reading others posts even these vents (and adding more) does not fix the problem, without the cost of adding a ridge vent which is not a average DIY job.
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl

Towger said:
The older existing housing stock does not have vents and from reading others posts even these vents (and adding more) does not fix the problem, without the cost of adding a ridge vent which is not a average DIY job.
Click to expand...

Towger, this is not the position and the position is clear.

If you make a space colder [like an attic after insulating just above ceiling level below] you must take steps to prevent the build up of air carrying water vapour within it.

1. Install a vapour check/ seal the ceiling, including penetrations.
2. Ensure the attic is adequately vented - Part F compliance will do it.

Both persons posting to another thread, Eamon and D failed to vapour check the ceiling below, ergo...

HTH

ONQ.
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl

Interesting that the PDF linked to by Towger says:

'A vapour check should be installed on the warm side of
the insulation and ventilation above.' when creating an attic room,

but is silent on the topic of installing a vapour check when talking about insulating a pitched roof with an attic space.

I agree with Towger that government agencies and their contractors seem to be indifferent to or ignorant of the issue or the steps as recommended by ONQ as regards vapour barrier.

I think it is very remiss that people are not informed of the correct steps, and the potential consequences.

I feel fortunate that I at least noticed the problem in my own house, so that I can plan / carry out remedial action, and I dread to think what could have been the outcome if I hadn't seen it.
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl

onq said:
Towger, this is not the position and the position is clear.
Click to expand...

But the position is not clear, it is not mentioned at all. If you read the official document ([broken link removed]) issued by the 'government' to Joe Public (da punters);


  • One drops into their local DIY Shed.

  • Buys a few roles of insulation.

  • Lay them down in the attic leaving gapes at the eves etc.

  • Fill any cracks or holes in the ceiling to prevent warm, moist air rising into the attic as this causes condensation.

Even if one was to hire a 'professional' attic insulation company to do the job they would do much the same.

Maybe, with the additional of using the plastic eave vent trays.
Maybe, but not lightly add a couple of vents to the soffit.
They are not going to rip down the ceiling to add foil backed plaster boards or at the very least paint them with a vapour barrier paint, or add ridge vents etc to the roof.
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl

Towger said:
The Government is telling us to and [broken link removed] on insulating our attics. However this is leading to serious damp problems, even when their instructions are followed to the letter. What can we do about it?
Click to expand...

[broken link removed]

page 7 of that document clearly describes what needs to be done to minimise risk of condensation.

saying that a person or a tradesman "wont do it" is not an argument to beat the government with. A half assed job should never be considered acceptable.
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl


Towger,

Over the course of these exchanges I suggested three ways to do this:

1. Visqueen or similar held with Plasterboards
2. Foil Backed Plasterboards
3. Applied Painted Finish.

[These are not necessarily exhaustive BTW]

Nowhere did I suggest pulling down the ceiling that's there.
You simply fix the new plasterboards [FB or not] to the existing ceiling/joists and work away.

Your engineer should check the adequacy of the existing ceiling joists.
You should do this before doing much work in an attic anyway.
Simply add another layer of plaster board.

This is 13-15mm finished if you use 12.5mm boards skimmed and taped, but you should check your floor to ceiling height.
I'm not sure if sub-12.5mm boards are around still, but the 12.5mm double-slabbing is a recognised fire measure also.
It may prove to be of benefit if you were in a two storey house and decided to convert the attic at a later stage.
Assuming you did them in the correct way to attain the fire rating - AFAIK thats not on the DOEHLG website.

A 2400mm ceiling height is cited in Part F, but its not mandatory under the regulations as far as I can see.
Being 15mm under 2400mm is unlikely to attract enforcement action, but may cause questions at sell-on.
Check with your local building control officer anyway - they have the power to interpret the regulations.

The fact that you didn't consider this relatively straightforward method of doing the job is the reason why some people make good builders and others are not.
Its a different way of looking at the world.

Its also the reason why I advise that people should retain professionals and competent contractors in relation to the design and carrying out works to their houses. Building is serious business where if things go wrong costs can escalate out of all proportion to the original bad practice.
Usually its houses here but it applies to all buildings.

I agree with you in principle and I have recently prepared an article for publication in a magazine [whether it'll get published or not remains to be seen] about the problems self-builders face in relation to the Health and Safety regulations - or in some instances, the problems they may cause through ignorance of the law and their responsibilities.

At Plan Expo 2009 I called on the government to get one of its six-figure senior civil servants motivated to produce a compliant set of drawings for one simple building showing compliance with ALL the regulations, not just the so-called "approved details" currently on the DOEHLG website, which deal solely with insulation and sealing.

There are 12 building regulations in all, not just Part L and as matters stand, installing an MVHR system in accordance with Part Q of the BER guidelines breaches Part F of the building regulations. Part F requires that the house provides 6500sqmm of venting to each habitable room. and MVHR [Mecnahical Ventilation and Heat Reclamation] requires the house to be sealed for it to work effectively.

BTW the issues that arise with attic insulation is only one small subset of problems that can arise in buildings, and without wishing to over-dramatise the factors involved, every building, while superficially the same, can have different problems. This is why competent professionals and contractors are needed to trace, assess and address building defects.

The Eamon, D yourself all seem clued in enough but this was clear as mud to you at the start.
I can see another FAQ post coming out of this - the Insulating Your Attic FAQ.

You should write to Minister Gormley and make him aware of your views.
Democracy works, but the ones who shout loudest are easy to hear.
[sometimes they get removed for heckling, but that's another story]

No rest for the wicked.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl

Precautions
• It is essential to cross-ventilate the attic space to prevent
condensation by leaving a continuous air gap along the
eaves at each side.
Click to expand...

As has been pointed out in a number of posts this is insufficient in many houses, especially in older houses which don't have vents in the soffits
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl


have to disagree with you on this one ONQ...

personally i dont see any contradiction in the two regs.

Part F clearly states on paragraph 1.3

"1.3 Ventilation to achieve the objectives set out in Paragraph 1.1 may be achieved by natural ventilation,
or through the supply or extraction of air by mechanical means, or by a combination of these methods."

This paragraph goes on to state that "The guidance in this Document relates only to non-complex buildings of normal design and construction where natural ventilation constitutes the primary means of ventilation."

So the guidance in the document pertains to natural ventilation only, and as you know, TGD's are only a description of prima facia compliance. Compliance with BS 5720 is acceptable for mechanical systems.

In any event, the new Part F due to come in next year will deal stringently with MHRV systems. here it is in case you havent come across it yet. http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,17944,en.pdf
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl


Syd, that document mentions downlighters in the context of keeping back the insulation [resulting in local cold spots in the attic] but fails to mention they are holes which allow water vapour to pour unrestricted into the attic space.

In another section, quoted already it says :

Fill any cracks or holes in the ceiling to prevent warm,moist air rising into the attic as this causes condensation.

This isn't good enough to seal a ceiling where there are high levels of water vapour in the rooms below.
We're not even talking about vapour sealing, just vapour checking and the advice here doesn't even seem to get off the starting blocks.

For example the attic hatch is mentioned, but only in the context of sticking insulation on the back of it - nothing about sealing around it.

I forsee a lot of hastily-read guides leading to a lot of damp attics in the years to come.

FWIW

ONQ.
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl

Towger said:
As has been pointed out in a number of posts this is insufficient in many houses, especially in older houses which don't have vents in the soffits
Click to expand...

you put them in where possible...

if, for some reason its physically impossible, then you need to provide alternative such as vent tiles or slates, ridge vents, or passive vents in gable walls or other solutions.

construction always poses problems that need to be resolved. Successful builders find solutions.
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl


to be honest i only linked to that document because towger did in his post.

A much more appropriate document to refer to is:
[broken link removed]
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl

sydthebeat said:
to be honest i only linked to that document because towger did in his post.

A much more appropriate document to refer to is:
[broken link removed]
Click to expand...

Hi Syd,

I searched that document in PDF form with Adobe reader.

Yes, they talk about vents but in the same breath they consider a breathable membrane will allow you to cover them, and yes they talk about sealing the ceiling in the same breath as they talk about recessed downlighters.

It seems clear that none of the guides are being written by peoples with even a modicum of understanding of water vapour, how it moves through materials and the dangers inherent in insulating without sufficient vapour checking and adequate ventilation.

References are of course made to the appropriate British and Irish standards, but this is a cover all phrase that doesn't bring forward the principles involved.

I'll start on that FAQ I think or feel free to beat me to it.

Oh! Christmas is almost here - well maybe next year...

ONQ.
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl

Forgetting regulations, common sense tells me that vents in the soffits will not work in the winter, when even the washing will not dry on the line outside on a dry day. Condensation is fundamentally relative humidity. Hot air absorbs moisture and holds more than cold air, if you cool it, it gives off moisture, so even the existing air in the attic would become damp.
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl

Roker, that's the basics of it but if only it was that simple to keep the attic damp free with some many variables at play.
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl


Hi Syd,

I'm afraid I cannot agree entirely with you, much though I might like to.
You didn't quote the document fully - the bits in bold below refer:

=======================================

1.3 Ventilation to achieve the objectives set out in
Paragraph 1.1 may be achieved by natural ventilation,
or through the supply or extraction of air by
mechanical means, or by a combination of these
methods. The guidance in this Document relates
only to non-complex buildings of normal design and
construction where natural ventilation constitutes
the primary means of ventilation.

Paragraphs 1.4 to 1.13 give some guidance on good
practice in relation to the ventilation of dwellings
(see Diagram 1).

Paragraphs 1.14 to 1.16 provide guidance in relation
to buildings other than dwellings.
1.4 Where a room or space contains a heat
producing appliance, permanent ventilation may be
required. See Technical Guidance Document J - Heat
Producing Appliances.
Regard shall also be had to the requirements of Part
B - Fire Safety when dealing with the provision of
ventilation and air inlet openings.

DWELLINGS

Habitable Rooms

1.5 In a habitable room other than a utility
room, a kitchen or a room containing a kitchen, the
following provision for ventilation should be
adequate:
(a) a ventilation opening suitable for background
ventilation having a total area not less than
6500 mm2, and
(b) a ventilation opening suitable for rapid
ventilation having a total area of at least 1/20th
of the floor area of the room.

1.6 If ventilation is through another room or
space or into a court, see pars. 1.9 to 1.11.

Kitchens and Utility Rooms

1.7 In a utility room, a kitchen or a room
containing a kitchen, the following provision for
ventilation should be adequate:

(a) a ventilation opening suitable for background
ventilation having a total area of not less than
6500 mm2, and

(b) a ventilation opening suitable for rapid
ventilation having a total area of at least 1/20th
of the floor area, and

(c) (i) mechanical extract ventilation capable of
extracting at a rate of 60 litres per
second (or at a rate of 30 litres per
second where the ventilation extract is
incorporated in a cooker hood), which
may be operated intermittently, e.g.
when moisture vapour is being created
during cooking, washing, etc., or

(ii) passive stack ventilation (PSV) designed
and installed in accordance with BRE IP
13/94 and incorporating an automatic
humidity sensitive ventilation inlet
control grille.

Where a kitchen or utility room has a floor area of
less than 6.5m2 and does not contain an openable
window or external door, e.g. an internal nonhabitable
room, provision of either c(i) or c(ii) above
should be adequate. However, if mechanical extract
ventilation is provided, it should include an automatic
15 minutes overrun, (after switch-off) or be
controlled by humidistat. Provision should also be
made for air supply to each room e.g. a 10 mm gap
under the door or equivalent.

Where a kitchen or utility room contains an
open-flued appliance which is the main source of
space heating or hot water heating for the dwelling,
or which has a flue with a free area of at least the
equivalent of a 125mm diameter duct, and both flue
and air inlets are permanently open, i.e. with no
control dampers, the provision of either mechanical
extract ventilation or passive stack ventilation should
not be necessary.

=======================================

I have underlined the instances of and in the advices above, which seems to show that the 6500sqmm vents are not considered to be an optional extra.
However, the term "shall" is only used in connection with Part B so the rest of the quoted text above doesn't seem to be mandatory = some confusion.
Mechanical extract is listed an additional measure in rooms containing a kitchen, not a substitution for background ventilation.

Several other items in Part F are not mandatory and it is as well to bring this to the fore, but they are usually well-advised.
Example: head heights are advisory, but most people won't buy a property if the main room ceilings are much below 2.4M
In relation to venting I agree that this advice is not mandatory, but having permanent ventilation could be a life-saver.

The use of the term "regard" in the following text is less than useful:

Regard shall also be had to the requirements of Part
B - Fire Safety when dealing with the provision of
ventilation and air inlet openings.

The fact is that within two and three storey houses and houses with garages, certain elements require to be Fire Resisting.
Vents breaching this fire resistance put people at risk, so this is yet another area where matters are left to best judgement.
The only reason for this that I can fathom is that the government wants to avoid responsibility for the requirements of the TGD.
Yet show me a Building Control Officer who has accepted a house without permavents habitable rooms since the regulaitons came in.

So, in terms of the advice given in Part F; -

Background ventilation of 6500 mm2 and rapid ventilation openings of minimum 1/20 floor area are both required for all habitable rooms.
An internal kitchen with no windows and less than 6.5 sqm area is NOT deemd to be a habitable room.

Personally I think the holy grail of carbon neutral by 2013 could result in serious health problems.
After all, we've seen in several recent posts the kind of chaos caused by insulation installers!

I think we have to look at countries where timber building and aircon are used.
I think we need to learn about the medium and long tern effects on health.
We then apply the results of our research to building in the Irish context.
There will be a degree of interpretation due to our climate here.
I'm not sure how relevant these results will be because of this.
But I think we have to try and foresee problems anyway.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]
 
Re: Government is telling us to insulate our attics yet this is leading to damp probl


im not disagreeing.... you are quoting the document perfectly,

the issue however is that the current document does NOT make allowances for our mechanical supply and extract system that MHRVs are. It clearly states that the document relates only to naturally ventilated dwellings only. Therefore compliance with current TGD part F can only show prima facia compliance with naturally ventilated dwellings, not mechanically ventilated. In order to certify compliance with currentpart f when MHRVs are shown, compliance with applicable BS's need to be assessed.

edt:

as it happens part f ammendment signed into law on 22 12 2009
http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,21942,en.pdf
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register