Friends dismissal, justified?

[JJ1982]

Please could I get an opinion on the below situation from anyone who has been through similar,

Ok so a friend of mine recently finished her accounting exams and qualified and asks her current employer in her appraisal would she be taken off her trainee salary and paid a fully qualified salary going forward. She was on a salary of 20k and basically the newly qualified salary is 30-35K. She was told, no, the company would raise her salary by 2k NEXT January. So basically my friend went and looked for a new job and was offered one with a reputable firm offering her 30k and benefits. She accepted the job. They asked her to get a written reference before she leaves work from employer.

So she gives in her notice in work. The boss we will call her Mary says "fair enough, i knew you would leave anyway". And that was the conversation about her leaving.

My friend was off work yesterday and Mary logged into her PC and read her emails. There was no emails that said anything about her leaving but just general personal emails to friends and then an email form last Friday at 5pm saying "thank god its Friday, get me the **** outta here". So basically your one called my friend in to her office yesterday and dismissed her saying this

-she used her work email for personal use
-she threw back in the company's face all the support they gave her while she was studying
-she has no respect for the company and was very sly in going about changing jobs
-Mary said that she couldn't look at her cos she felt my friend had taken total advantage of her

Now the company never gave her a days study leave, they were always taken as holidays, they never paid for exams. Yes, they did train her but they also paid her a pittance while billing clients top dollar (as happens in all firms). They refused to give her a raise last January saying that she wasn't consistent in work. The following week they gave her a promotion cos one of the other accountants left, but gave her no pay rise based on the face they believed she wasn't consistent.

So basically, Mary doesn't want to give my friend a reference for her job and I basically think this is out of order and I honestly feel she was dismissed cos your one couldn't deal with the fact she was leaving in two weeks anyway. My friend is devastated over the reference and is worried sick. I honestly think that the company are WAY out of line here and that her dismissal was unjustified. Any opinions or anyone ever been through the same

 

[jhegarty]

-she used her work email for personal use
-she threw back in the company's face all the support they gave her while she was studying
-she has no respect for the company and was very sly in going about changing jobs
-Mary said that she couldn't look at her cos she felt my friend had taken total advantage of her

- Unless she had been previously warned it would be very dogey ground to sack someone (this presumes there was nothing too bad in the emails)
- not a reason for dismissal
- not a reason for dismissal

 

[MrMan]

I would go down the route of sorting it personally and playing to her vanity. Apologise for being naive and using the emails, tell her that she has great respect for her and what the company has done for her. Then say that she hoped that her hard work during this time was also valued and that she was now at a stage in her life that she need to take a financial step up and the only option open to her was through the new company. Tell her that not providing a reference would put a nail in her careers coffin and surely she wouldn't do that to somebody starting out.

Others might suggest the use of a solicitor but if you want the thing sorted within 2 weeks its a case of grovel grovel grovel to me.

 

[JJ1982]

Thanks for the speedy replies. The emails were simple emails asking how friends were and plans for weekend. She has never been warned before about this. I think that appealing to vanity is also a good idea, I am not sure it would work though. I really think my friend would prefer to draw a line under it all but a bad reference or one that is basically confirming that she turned up for work for three years is not a good way to start off your next job!

 

[homeowner]

-she used her work email for personal use
-she threw back in the company's face all the support they gave her while she was studying
-she has no respect for the company and was very sly in going about changing jobs
-Mary said that she couldn't look at her cos she felt my friend had taken total advantage of her

None of the above are grounds for dismissal. The fact that she used work email for personal use merits a warning verbal or written. I work for a large multi national and from the management/HR classes I have attended we have been told the guidelines are 2 verbal and 1 written warning before a dismissal except for what could be termed gross misconduct and none of the above amount to that.

 

[ubiquitous]

Was she dismissed at all? She was on a training contract, which had expired. She had already handed in her notice. The only question to be asked is whether the employer was correct in not allowing her to work for her notice period. This is not uncommon. Perhaps some of our legal experts could advise?

 

[csirl]

Is there somewhere else she can get a reference? Its quite common for people not to provide references from their current employer when changing job due to not wanting the current employer to take offence by them seeking to leave.

Incident as described above looks like dead cert unfair dismissal (assuming this isnt a training contract that is ending). But it is understandable that your friend does not want to go down this route if starting a new job. Has she already secured the job, or is it pending the reference? If she's already secured it, then if she does a good job at the new employer, anything the old employer said will be soon forgotten and written off as sour grapes at losing a valuable employee.

If it's the case that this reference may prevent her getting the new job, I would be inclined to make an appointment to visit Mary's boss seeking a reference from him/her and point out Mary's unprofessional reaction to the employee leaving the company for financial reasons (salary) and insist that you get reinstatement, a good reference and an apology from Mary for the "dismissal" or else you will have no option but to take things further. Start of by being diplomatic - you may find that Mary already has a history with this sort of thing or they're somewhat unhappy with her employee management, and so will be ok with fixing everything. If you get the stonewall, then go a bit harder on the unfair dismissal etc. and you'll usually find that if they dont cave in on the day, they will on reflection and having sought legal advice on the matter.

 

[ClubMan]

Incident as described above looks like dead cert unfair dismissal

Are you sure?

CitizensInformation - Unfair dismissal

Service

Normally you must have at least 12 months' continuous service with your employer in order to bring a claim for unfair dismissal. However there are important exceptions to this general rule. If you have less than 12 months' continuous service you may bring a claim for unfair dismissal if you are dismissed for:

• Trade union membership or activity
• Pregnancy, giving birth or breastfeeding or any matters connected with pregnancy or birth
• Availing of rights granted by the Maternity Protection Acts 1994 and 2004, the Adoptive Leave Acts 1995 and 2005, the National Minimum Wage Act 2000, the Parental Leave Acts 1998 and 2006 and the Carer's Leave Act 2001

How long was she working there and what was the nature of her contract?

 

[ubiquitous]

Interesting link on this topic here

[broken link removed]

2.7 Waiver and Payment in Lieu of Notice

Either side may voluntarily waive their right to notice.

7 The 1973 Act also allows employees to accept payment in lieu of notice.

8 It is necessary however that both parties be in agreement to such an arrangement. Where payment in lieu of notice is given by the employer and is accepted by the employee, or where there is provision for payment in lieu of notice in the employee’s contract of employment, then the date of termination of the contract of employment is the date upon which the employee physically leaves the employment. For statutory redundancy purposes, the date of termination of employment is the date on which notice, if given, would have expired.

9 The legislation provides that an employee may only “accept” payment in lieu of notice. The Act gives no guidance as to what should happen where payment in lieu of notice is not provided for in the contract of employment and/or if the employee concerned is unwilling to accept payment in lieu of notice and wishes “to work” the notice period.

Some experts10 suggest that failing agreement to such an arrangement the employee is entitled to stay on and work their notice period. The practicalities of this may make the arrangement inoperable such as if there is no work for the employee and/or relationships have broken down. Also it is usually more beneficial for the employee to receive payment in lieu of notice as notice monies may be paid as part of any severance arrangement and are subject to generous tax allowances.

 

[csirl]

Mary logged into her PC and read her emails.

Something doesnt sound right about this - I have a recollection of people winning claims by employers reading emails that are obviously personal. The other question is did Mary break the companies IT security policy by logging into a PC as someone else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by csirl http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=691541#post691541
Incident as described above looks like dead cert unfair dismissal

Are you sure?

Clubman's correct - needs 12 months service. My answer assumes min 12 months service.

 

[truthseeker]

The other question is did Mary break the companies IT security policy by logging into a PC as someone else?

Unless Mary logged into the server as an administrator she would have had to log into the computer containing your friends emails as your friend, using her username and password - this may well be against the companies IT security policy, in most places you are not supposed to be using other peoples usernames and passwords. Of course there could alwasy be a generic username/password combination that allows a number of different people access to one mailbox, but if that were the case Im sure your friend wouldnt have been using that mailbox for personal emails.

 

[dodo]

Something similar was on liveline, a girl just started a new job and she emailed her ex workers in her old job who new email address, She got the sack on her first day no warming but it was written in her contract not to use company email for personal use.
First thing she should do is check her contract and see what it says,
Now since she was there for a certain period of time she should be allowed due course,also the above girl should have a due course process.
She a a few choices, first she can play the system and say that she saw other workers use the email for private use(most people do)and thought this was ok, say sorry and get her reference and then go to the unfair dismissile route,which she has a great chance of winning from my experience, she should have got verbal warning ,written warning then maybe a final warning, none of this happened so they are at fault, should should ask for company procedures,handbook,
Second she could also be up front and honest with new employer ,she could be surprised how they might react to her honestly,
She has the job so why would she need a reference,also she could get reference from another previous employer if possible.
Tell her to ring the labour courts,etc.
She will get a few Euro from this I think

 

[ClubMan]

Now since she was there for a certain period of time she should be allowed due course,also the above girl should have a due course process.

Due course [process]? What does that mean?

first she can play the system and say that she saw other workers use the email for private use

Do you mean lie/make things up?

Tell her to ring the labour courts,etc.
She will get a few Euro from this I think

Really? On what basis?

Besides at this stage of her career would she not be better off putting this behind her, moving on, putting her time to more effective use and concentrating on advancing in her chosen field?

 

[JJ1982]

Sorry for the delay in replying. She started working there in September 2006 so would have had almost 24 mnths worked by the time she left and worked her notice.

She does not want any money from this, she simply doesnt want a reference that is so sparse that any intellegent employer could tell that the reference was given only because they old employer was compelled to do so. She already has given a reference for her job before that but this new job asked that she give a written reference form her current employer after she handed in the notice.

Ubiquitous: her contract wasnt a training contract in that she would be left go at the end of her training time in the way that the big 4 work in cases. It was a simple contract that had the usual salary, job description, hours of work and notice period on it

 

[JJ1982]

Besides at this stage of her career would she not be better off putting this behind her, moving on, putting her time to more effective use and concentrating on advancing in her chosen field?

Absolutely but not if this womans refusal to provide a decent, and deserved reference interferes with her gettign up the ladder. She would quie happily walk away otherwise