Family Law Settlement pre case hearing

[Robert2020]

Our family law circuit court hearing date is due in about 8 weeks.
So far the ex’s legal team have not engaged in any settlement discussions.
Q1-I have heard they are unlikely to do so until about 1 week before the hearing?..

I believe it is likely that we end up in full hearing, as my ex’s ask so far has been quite ridiculous- basically everything of the combined estate!
Q2- Surely it has to an Applicant ask based on circa equality of 50:50 and somewhere around the 1/2 actual estate value?..
I am still considering representing myself as a lay litigant- I am still not confident that any barrister will be able to articulate the key defences points of the case efficiently on the day.

Q3- What is likely total cost of 1 day hearing, including prep time in advance, solicitor and top barrister on the day?
Q4- If I were a lay litigant would the other side engage in settlement discussions before the case or only if I have legal representation?
Q5- If we both have good jobs and Im already paying good maintenance, surely the asset split is circa 50:50 equality? Yes, we have 2 kids, but this is already factored into the maintain calculation+ all the other kids costs I spend on too. We both have a right to an equal share of the assets for equality, right? Same as all other aspects of society .. The ex is a firm believer in inequality.
Q6- If the result is likely circa 50:50 asset splits, what extra is a good barrister likely to get me or fight for in Court?.. The estates is quite small circa €1m total, so seems like a lot of combined legal fees to fight about a marginal difference v 50:50 assets split.
It is Unethical that small cases go to court with big fees really- disproportionate erosion on the estate.

I appreciate many on here are actually solicitors & barristers.
Keen to hear from anyone who has been either to a full hearing or settlement reached just before it.

 

[Baby boomer]

I am still considering representing myself as a lay litigant- I am still not confident that any barrister will be able to articulate the key defences points of the case efficiently on the day.

Barristers are trained to do exactly that. They do it every day. They are very good at it.

.. The estates is quite small circa €1m total, so seems like a lot of combined legal fees to fight about a marginal difference v 50:50 assets split.

With €1 million in play, you really don't want to be doing this on a DIY basis.

It is Unethical that small cases go to court with big fees really- disproportionate erosion on the estate.

You have a point. Mediation is the best way to keep costs down for both parties. Obviously needs both sides to play ball.

I appreciate many on here are actually solicitors & barristers.
Keen to hear from anyone who has been either to a full hearing or settlement reached just before it.

The ideal full hearing is a rubber stamping exercise with agreement reached in advance on all issues, the main ones being children, maintenance, property, assets and pensions. If you're fighting these issues out in Court, your costs are escalating rapidly.

 

[ArthurMcB]

Q5- If we both have good jobs and Im already paying good maintenance, surely the asset split is circa 50:50 equality?

Is there not a distinction made between marital assets ie assets accumulated during marriage and non marital ie assets accum before marriage and sfter seperation?

Non marital assets, i woukd assume, are not part of the agreement and are owned by whomever accumulated them?

Marital assets get split 50:50?

 

[ReesesPieces]

I think you need good legal advise from someone very experienced in this area. These things generally aren't done on a laypersons sense of what's 'fair' there's pretty established criteria. I'm really only familiar with how this is done in the UK (and not a lawyer!), but factors that would be taken into consideration there would be first, the housing needs of the children - who is going to have them the majority of the time. The 'ideal' would be maintaining their home, at least till they're 18, and if there's a primary carer then they would often get more of the asset to ensure they can adequately house the children.

The UK also takes into account if one parent has stepped back from their career to facilitate childcare, so will have lower earning expectations, and will often 'correct' that imbalance through asset transfer to reflect the fact that when the decision was made it was assumed they'd have access to joint marital assets. Ongoing maintenance is separate. As far as I'm aware, unless its a marriage of extremely short duration, any assets brought into the marriage by either party are considered marital assets. Now, this is all based on what I know about UK family law, but you really need experienced advise from someone who knows how these things are usually decided and what guiding principles judges use to make these decisions. Otherwise if you go in talking about, 'but everything should be split 50/50' when the circumstances in your case dictate that's not how it would usually be done, I'd assume you're just likely to aggravate everyone.

Ditto with talk of 'equality' - if you both earn exactly the same amount, have always split childcare tasks 50/50, and have enough in joint assets to both adequately house the children then of course a 50/50 split and probably no maintenance would make the most sense. But very few people have that set up, and the way to end up with an equal outcome for both parties long term, and particularly for the children, usually isn't to just divide everything in two.

 

[ArthurMcB]

As far as I'm aware, unless its a marriage of extremely short duration, any assets brought into the marriage by either party are considered marital assets.

The info in that link seems to be saying that assets accumulated by 1 spouse pre marriage may not be divided between spouses on seperation.

 

[Baby boomer]

The info in that link seems to be saying that assets accumulated by 1 spouse pre marriage may not be divided between spouses on seperation.

I'm not so sure that's what the link is saying! And even if it did say that, it would be wrong. The Court has complete discretion to make property orders relating to either pre or post marriage acquisition. There are just too many variables to make hard and fast rules. And that is precisely why the OP should take detailed legal advice.

 

[ArthurMcB]

Fair enough @Baby boomer i dont know a huge amount about this.

So if a couple marry and one has assets from before they met and they seperate say 6 months after marrying then those pre marital assets are not somewhat protected?

 

[MOB]

OP previously stated in another thread "The contentious issue is the family home is our main asset/wealth."

So, first the bad news for OP. If one parent has primary custody of the children, then that parent may well stand a fair shot of scoring ownership of the family home. A 50\50 split of the family home cannot be assumed.

However, if the house is valuable enough that it could be sold and adequate housing provision made for both parents from the sale proceeds without unduly affecting the children, then that is what OP should be working towards.

 

[Robert2020]

Hi. Thank you all for the above information & insights.
Im still keen to clarify the costs aspect and the lay litigant questions please if someone in the know/ experience can answer.

Q3- What is likely total cost of 1 day hearing, including prep time in advance, solicitor and top barrister on the day?
Q4- If I were a lay litigant would the other side engage in settlement discussions before the case or only if I have legal representation?
Q5- If we both have good jobs and Im already paying good maintenance, surely the asset split is circa 50:50 equality? Yes, we have 2 kids, but this is already factored

Plus- how doe the legal fees payments actually work. I know there are solicitors on here, but I do feel they string the clients along a bit with no discussion about the Elephant in the room- most clients dont have enough liquid funds to meet the full bill of a Court hearing.
This is our case too. Most of the the family wealth that could generate funds for case fees is in the family home.
How does my bill and my ex's actually get paid & in other cases? ..

 

[Baby boomer]

Q3- What is likely total cost of 1 day hearing, including prep time in advance, solicitor and top barrister on the day?

A full day in the Circuit Court? Ballpark, 20k and upwards. A 20 minute rubber stamping hearing in the same court? Should be about 5 - 10k. It's a piece of string really, but the less that's agreed in advance, the higher you can expect the bill to be.

Q4- If I were a lay litigant would the other side engage in settlement discussions before the case or only if I have legal representation?

They will engage. Their professional responsibility is to get the best possible outcome for their client. If they can get that by agreement from you, they will. They are very unlikely to offer you a better settlement than they might offer your legal representatives. Why would they?

Plus- how doe the legal fees payments actually work. I know there are solicitors on here, but I do feel they string the clients along a bit with no discussion about the Elephant in the room- most clients dont have enough liquid funds to meet the full bill of a Court hearing.
This is our case too. Most of the the family wealth that could generate funds for case fees is in the family home.
How does my bill and my ex's actually get paid & in other cases?

Trust me, solicitors have an excellent "nose" for money and they usually get paid! In family law, there is often a property sale, (or re-mortgage) and the solicitor's bill will be met from the sale proceeds. Otherwise it'll probably be a hefty payment up front. A solicitor acting for the economically weaker party, but with an expectation of getting a settlement, will often be prepared to wait for the settlement.

 

[Purple]

I am still considering representing myself as a lay litigant- I am still not confident that any barrister will be able to articulate the key defences points of the case efficiently on the day.

With all due respect that's a monumentally stupid idea.
If you're not confident that you can articulate your position to a solicitor or barrister that you are paying in such a way that they can represent you how on earth do you think you'll be able to articulate it to a judge (former barrister/solicitor) who you are not paying?

 

[Thirsty]

There are times when I think its a pity Family Law cases are held in camera.

Robert2020 seems convinced he has a case to argue; the reality is far more prosaic.

In my experience, Judges want facts and figures presented as simply and clearly as possible.

 

[ArthurMcB]

I'm not so sure that's what the link is saying!

@Baby boomer isnt that exactly what the link is saying - see quote below:

"The principle of community of property does not apply under Irish law and property held by each of the spouses prior to the marriage or acquired by one spouse in the course of the marriage remains the property of that spouse".

It goes on to cite specific law supporting this.

The Court has complete discretion to make property orders relating to either pre or post marriage acquisition. There are just too many variables to make hard and fast rules.

Of course - but surely assets acquired by one spouse before marriage or even before they met are assessed by the court and decided on accordingly? Those assets are not matrimonal assets and so would not be automatically divided equally?