Fair Deal/Nursing Homes Fair Deal. Beginners guide needed

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Annieindublin

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Where is a good source of an explanation of how FD works?
Parents still at home.
Home worth about 700k
Savings about 200k
Dad’s occupational pension, net about 2k a month, public sector so I think index linked.
Mum has zero, did not work outside the home since 1959
Both late 80s and health failing.
We aim to keep them at home as long as possible but dad is starting to show signs of dementia.
HSE carers currently with max hours a week for him, about half for her.
They also have some privately paid help for housework as they aren’t managing.
We (3 daughters) do all the shopping and cooking. But we all have full time jobs and our own homes, no small kids though so we are fine.

But the oldies worry about the future and how we’ll manage if one of them gets sick again. That adds a complexity. And if they end up needing a nursing home.

So I’ve been asked to find out the details of what FD might do and not do.

Where to start? I’ve tried google and keep rabbit holes.
 
Many thanks. I never thought of citizen’s information Duh!

I kept finding out of date articles and companies offering to help, for a fee I assume.

Looks like we can choose between using savings and getting a loan. I’ll discuss this with my siblings when the time comes.

And the rules regarding renting out the property have changed, so we can add rent to the pot when/if the time comes. There are adult grandkids who might be interested in renting if the house becomes vacant. I don’t want to look after a vacant property but it would take a lot of work to clear it for a tenant. But if it’s family we can clear sufficient rooms and store personal items in one of the bedrooms.
I can explain this to my parents now and they can stop worrying.
 
I did one some time ago after researching it.

Key Post - Explaining the Fair Deal Scheme

The purpose of this thread is to understand the financial aspects of the Fair Deal Scheme and the Nursing Home Loan Scheme. It is not to discuss whether it is fair or not or what changes should be made. Please discuss these in another thread. Only reply to this thread to correct it or to ask a...
www.askaboutmoney.com

But it could well be out of date.
 
Many thanks Brendan.

It seems that keeping the house is the best bet. Good to know. I can assure mum that we won’t sell it. Explains what happened a few years back when a great aunt’s house was sold to cover the costs and they ran out of cash. Dad had advised them to keep it but they didn’t listen.

2 of us are higher rate tax payers so the family would be better off if we paid the fees. But I’m thinking it’s not kosher to reclaim that from the estate in due course? Smells like tax avoidance.

Of course this may never arise. They may stay in their own home for many more years, but I fear dad’s dementia might progress to an extent that it’s not safe.
 
Annieindublin said:
2 of us are higher rate tax payers so the family would be better off if we paid the fees. But I’m thinking it’s not kosher to reclaim that from the estate in due course? Smells like tax avoidance.
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It makes sense for you to pay the fees.

But claiming them back from the estate is not tax avoidance. It is tax evasion which is a criminal offence.

Brendan
 
I know other people on here may have different views but personally, I found the Fair Deal office to be very helpful. It is also worth having a conversation with the Public Health nurse as they know how the game has to be played and may also give you a view on local nursing homes that a HIQA or other report won't give.

In terms of the fees, without Fair Deal you are looking at approx €60k-€75k pa for each parent. I think Fair Deal acceptance is valid for 5 years but stand corrected on that

Start also with some basics, have they a will in place. do they have a family solicitor and is it worth having a Power of Attorney done at this stage?. Set bills up to Direct Debit, pension collected electronically etc. Make life as simple as you can for when/if it happens. All less things for them to worry about.

Don't try and hide anything on the Fair Deal application, I know people who did and it turned into a nightmare.
 
We have EPA in progress, the new system is slow.

They have wills and all bank accounts are joint and they have dd set up for everything. Mum is not losing her faculties but is pretty immobile and getting slower.

One of us does med 1 claims and looks after health insurance claims. Another looks after household stuff, like getting the central heating oil delivered. We keep each other up to speed on medical and household stuff so there’s nothing hidden. Their doctors and public health nurse have been told to share anything necessary and are happy to do so. Likewise the HSE care people.

And my bad Brendan, I get evasion and avoidance mixed up. It didn’t smell right and it isn’t right. I’d forgotten about the tax free gift. They usually gift each of us €2k at Christmas, very generous. For the past few years we’ve all stashed it away in case it’s needed.

€120k a year. Yikes. Their pension is good but not that good! Shows though that, where’s there’s 2 of them, keeping them at home is a better bet, financially, we will see how long we can manage. Overnight care would be problematic. But working together we will manage.
 
Annieindublin said:
I don’t want to look after a vacant property but it would take a lot of work to clear it for a tenant.
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Another problem that I found with the vacant property, tied into the Fair Deal scheme under the old rules, was that the house insurance and utilities became very expensive. Most insurance companies don't like insuring vacant properties because of the extra risk and low usage for electricity etc. makes it a ridiculous price. I often felt it would have been easier to leave all the lights and other stuff on to bring the usage within the normal range which would have been wrong.
 

That's correct because when there is no one in the house and for example, a pipe bursts, no one will notice it. Utilities shouldn't change, no reason to tell them there is no one there to be honest and we disconnected things like the landline when we went through it.
 
Gifting children 2-3 K a year would be considered as their savings for the last five years under fair deal. The fact it complies with tax/inherintance means nothing to fair deal. To my knowledge. Fair Deal will ask for the last five years of bank statements, take one look at all the withdrawals for the last five years, and then add them to the overall income you have listed. They did that to me and noted a 5,000 withdrawal some four years before the application date (it was a kitchen remodel). They added that 5,000 to the total income.
With both parents still alive, and both may be needing NH, it is alas a long expensive road ahead.
 
Have you considered a live in carer . This is working very well for an elderly friend. He remains in his own home and family and friends come to visit.
 
Can anybody recommend (or have experience of) an insurance company who provide cover for homes vacant after owners move into nursing homes?
 
scatriona said:
Can anybody recommend (or have experience of) an insurance company who provide cover for homes vacant after owners move into nursing homes?
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An Post insurance covered my late Mother in law's house after she went into the nursing home.
 
scatriona said:
Can anybody recommend (or have experience of) an insurance company who provide cover for homes vacant after owners move into nursing homes?
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Some insurers might offer limited cover to existing customers in these circumstances, always worth a try first.

Googling unoccupied home insurance shows a few that offer this cover. Most, for us anyway had unrealistic criteria, some even wanting the entire water system drained.

Arachas criteria were the easiest to meet. Expect to pay at least double the cost of standard insurance,
 
DeeKie said:
Where did he find the carer?
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Live in carers are available from agencies like Homeinstead etc but are not an option for most because of the cost, I think we were quoted around €3.5K a week.

I know a few who tried employing their own carer directly, it never worked out long term. Lots of problems interviewing, vetting and reference checking potential carers, some abroad.

If you find a livein carer that you are happy with, that person is entitled to time off, weekends off, holidays and to be sick themselves. Who will step in for these times ?

What if there is a personality clash and the carer and person being cared for just dont click, back to square 1 again.

The carer can give notice and leave at any time, this seems to happen frequently for many reasons.

I am aware of another lovely carer who was great in many ways, had a full driving licence but was a danger to all on the road, he had to go.

If you are prepared to manage all the administration and hassle of finding, interviewing, vetting, employing, and are able to cover time off etc, and are very lucky to get someone good, then it is the most economical way to care for someone in their own home. I don't think it works out though in most cases.
 
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