evicting an unregistered tenant

[galway_blow_in]

i bought a property at auction for cash in the past week , i got it for half what it sold for in 2007 and circa 35% cheaper than other units which were sold in the same development in the past two years .

however , there are people ( or persons ) residing in the property and there is no registered tenancy attached to the property , i know this because ive checked with the RTB

this is obviously a high risk purchase - investment but when i bought i was prepared to spend two years evicting the person - persons who are living there , its a really good property and in a good area of a large thriving town .

obviously i will need to engage with a solicitor once im fully registered as the owner but i was wondering if there is any obligation here to involve the RTB in the eviction process , squatters rights is not a possibility here , however , you cannot of course simply turn the power off or employ a locksmith to change the locks while removing the dwellers possessions

my question is whether i can completely bypass the RTB and evict those who are living in this property ?

say i do manage to resolve the issue within two years , if there is no history of a registered tenancy , is the property effectively the same as a brand new build in that i will not be bound by any rent control regulation ?

 

[Dermot]

For a start you could notify them that you are the new owner as and from the date of acquiring it and inspect the property giving the proper notice. You could issue a valid rent increase notice up to market value. See what response you get and I would do this before I would contact RTB. I would at the outset find out who is living there, how many are living there, how long they are living there and what arrangements they have for living there.
As you are a landlord already you have a fair idea of the other relevant questions to ask.
Good luck with the new purchase

 

[galway_blow_in]

For a start you could notify them that you are the new owner as and from the date of acquiring it and inspect the property giving the proper notice. You could issue a valid rent increase notice up to market value. See what response you get and I would do this before I would contact RTB. I would at the outset find out who is living there, how many are living there, how long they are living there and what arrangements they have for living there.
As you are a landlord already you have a fair idea of the other relevant questions to ask.
Good luck with the new purchase

you cannot do a rent review on an unregistered tenancy .

you must register a new tenancy first , you cannot do that if the people living in the property wont open the door or engage

as i said in the opening post , i was just wondering if the RTB need to be involved in the eviction process here ?

 

[cremeegg]

I am not sure what you mean by

i was just wondering if the RTB need to be involved in the eviction process here ?

the RTB aren't involved in any eviction, but you must abide by the rules whether the tenancy was registered or not.

I would go along and introduce myself. You need to establish what the rent is. I am not sure how you would do that, unless the tenant has evidence or the previous owner has evidence. If the tenant does not pay the rent then obviously you can issue notice for non payment.

 

[galway_blow_in]

I am not sure what you mean by



the RTB aren't involved in any eviction, but you must abide by the rules whether the tenancy was registered or not.

I would go along and introduce myself. You need to establish what the rent is. I am not sure how you would do that, unless the tenant has evidence or the previous owner has evidence. If the tenant does not pay the rent then obviously you can issue notice for non payment.

I thought the RTB are absolutely involved in the eviction process? , you must get approval from the RTB to evict in order to issue proceedings through the conventional court system?

As this tenancy is not registered, I don't think the RTB need to be engaged with?

 

[galway_blow_in]

OK so there has been a positive development, I called to the property around 8pm earlier this evening, arrived with a bottle of wine and handed it to the person who opened the door.

Two Polish guys living in the apartment since 2013. Terrible English but fine otherwise, they were paying the previous landlord cash in hand and then stopped paying for a year when receiver moved in.

Got PPS number and name and address, next move is to register a tenancy but I don't know whether I need to back date to 2013?

Also, rent not changed since 2013 so can I register the tenancy today and also set ball in motion for rent review?

Don't intend to evict based on tonight's meeting

 

[cremeegg]

I thought the RTB are absolutely involved in the eviction process? , you must get approval from the RTB to evict in order to issue proceedings through the conventional court system?

As this tenancy is not registered, I don't think the RTB need to be engaged with?

For a court to order an eviction you do of course need an RTB determination. I was thinking about he initial steps of issuing notice.

 

[luckystar]

all very interesting. Have you found out what the rent was when they were paying? Have you used the RTB calculator to see what the amount would be today?

 

[cremeegg]

No tenancy was registered with the RTB. The landlord was being paid cash.

I would look at this as a first rental and register it from the date you bought.

Surely you are not responsible for ensuring it was registered before you bought.

 

[galway_blow_in]

all very interesting. Have you found out what the rent was when they were paying? Have you used the RTB calculator to see what the amount would be today?

Well I can only take the polish gentlemen at face value, he says it was 500 euro but no registered tenancy exists.

Not in a RPZ so I am not limited to a 4% increase, will obviously need to provide three months notice however

 

[Dermot]

I would do as cremegg suggests and register as new tenancy. You probably have to pay the late payment penalty with no reward from the RTB and less explaining and raise the rent to market value maybe allowing for the condition. Remember if the lefties succeed a rent freeze could be on its way. I have gotten severvely punished for doing the right thing by a tenant in a RPZ and it seems more punishment on the way by way of rent freeze.

 

[galway_blow_in]

I would do as cremegg suggests and register as new tenancy. You probably have to pay the late payment penalty with no reward from the RTB and less explaining and raise the rent to market value maybe allowing for the condition. Remember if the lefties succeed a rent freeze could be on its way. I have gotten severvely punished for doing the right thing by a tenant in a RPZ and it seems more punishment on the way by way of rent freeze.

I'm hearing views which suggests I Coul get in trouble down the line if it emerged in an RTB hearing that I didn't start the tenancy in 2013?

 

[cremeegg]

I'm hearing views which suggests I Coul get in trouble down the line if it emerged in an RTB hearing that I didn't start the tenancy in 2013?

Where are you hearing this.

From my understanding YOU did not start the tenancy in 2013. You only purchased the house in 2019.

While I do not know directly if you now have acquired an obligation to register the tenancy from 2013, that would be surprising to say the least. How are you supposed to know what went on in 2013.

Dont go looking for trouble. Register the tenancy now. Thats my take.

 

[galway_blow_in]

Where are you hearing this.

From my understanding YOU did not start the tenancy in 2013. You only purchased the house in 2019.

While I do not know directly if you now have acquired an obligation to register the tenancy from 2013, that would be surprising to say the least. How are you supposed to know what went on in 2013.

Dont go looking for trouble. Register the tenancy now. Thats my take.

I'll ask my solicitor, you ask the RTB the same question three days on the trot and get three completely different answers

 

[Dermot]

Chances are your solicitor will not know unless they are specialising in this field which is highly unlikely. Im in complete agreement with cremegg on this. Let us know what your solicitors view on this and their reasoning for the opinion

 

[galway_blow_in]

Chances are your solicitor will not know unless they are specialising in this field which is highly unlikely. Im in complete agreement with cremegg on this. Let us know what your solicitors view on this and their reasoning for the opinion

I suspect they won't know, I really see little downside to commencing the tenancy in 2013

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

I suspect they won't know, I really see little downside to commencing the tenancy in 2013

Legally, how can you register a tenant for a different landlord? I don't see how it is possible.

If you want to keep them then you have to register it in your own name from today. The issue is then that it becomes a new tenancy and you can't raise rents for two years.

Outside of Rent Pressure Zones landlords can only review the rent 24 months after the tenancy commencement date or 24 months from the date of service of the last valid rent review.

You could have an informal chat with the tenants and try to convince them to sign at a higher rent on the basis that €500 pcm is below market, and then register it.

I think this is the best way forward . You'll never be able to backdate the registration as you weren't the landlord in 2013, and by the sounds of it he/she has gone missing and won't co-operate with you.

 

[galway_blow_in]

Legally, how can you register a tenant for a different landlord? I don't see how it is possible.

If you want to keep them then you have to register it in your own name from today. The issue is then that it becomes a new tenancy and you can't raise rents for two years.

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/sett/

You could have an informal chat with the tenants and try to convince them to sign at a higher rent on the basis that €500 pcm is below market, and then register it.

I think this is the best way forward . You'll never be able to backdate the registration as you weren't the landlord in 2013, and by the sounds of it he/she has gone missing and won't co-operate with you.

It's not a case of registering for another landlord, it's about acknowledging the six year tenancy of the tenants, the tenants have accrued rights regardless of their tenancy having been informal, if I needed to evict them and the case came before the RTB, it would look bad if I ignored the life duration of their stay in the property, the RTB are completely pro tenant.

I've been a landlord before,I don't think you have to get the tenants to sign anything in order to set a new rent?, I don't plan to bother with a lease as the RTB conditions trump them every time , in the case where three months notice must be given, you simply forward the tenant on details of the new rent along with examples of three other properties with the same rent, it's then up to the tenant to write to the RTB and dispute the proposed rent

My priority is getting the rent officially to market level before this new three year freeze is gotten through. Even the sitting tenants go rogue, at least I've achieved that and it will stand to me in the long term

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

It's not a case of registering for another landlord,

Yes it is! Look at the form on the RTB website. You would have to give the landlord's name, address, PPS no, rent charged etc. You have to swear that this is correct to the best of your knowledge, and there is no way you can know this stuff with certainty!

it's about acknowledging the six year tenancy of the tenants, the tenants have accrued rights regardless of their tenancy having been informal, if I needed to evict them and the case came before the RTB, it would look bad if I ignored the life duration of their stay in the property, the RTB are completely pro tenant.

I appreciate you want to do right by the tenants. That said, there is very little evidence that they ever had a tenancy. It was never registered and they paid in cash. In very stark terms, you have just bought a house and strangers are living in it with nothing on paper to justify their presence.

My priority is getting the rent officially to market level before this new three year freeze is gotten through. Even the sitting tenants go rogue, at least I've achieved that and it will stand to me in the long term

As I've said, the best approach is to try and get them to sign a lease with you at market terms. This would achieve the same ends without any drama over back-dating.

 

[galway_blow_in]

Yes it is! Look at the form on the RTB website. You would have to give the landlord's name, address, PPS no, rent charged etc. You have to swear that this is correct to the best of your knowledge, and there is no way you can know this stuff with certainty!



I appreciate you want to do right by the tenants. That said, there is very little evidence that they ever had a tenancy. It was never registered and they paid in cash. In very stark terms, you have just bought a house and strangers are living in it with nothing on paper to justify their presence.



As I've said, the best approach is to try and get them to sign a lease with you at market terms. This would achieve the same ends without any drama over back-dating.

Say I register a tenancy from the middle of January 2020 or thereabouts, I have the tenants details ( pps etc), can I simply include the new revised higher rent when I am registering the tenancy?

Like I said earlier, my priority is getting a higher rent made official, do I need agreement in writing from the tenant prior to registering a new - higher rent?

Do I need proof of receipt of payment in order to register the rent amount?