Effluent and even more poo!

R

Rustyred

Guest
Can anyone help us please? Having lived at our property for some 24 years, we have suddenly discovered that we are receiving effluent into our septic tank from a neighbour some 300 yds away, which causes ours to overflow with raw sewerage expelling into the burn. The neighbours who have since moved were, prior to their sale, mucking about with excavators and the like because they had problems with their own septic tank. When the new owners moved in, we helped them unblock their pipes only to discover it now all comes down to us via the graveyard along with additional water coming from goodness only knows where. We contacted SEPA who advised that it was normal practise with old septic tanks for pipes to overflow into the burn since the water should be clear, but when I said well Ok we will ask our neighbours to cut the pipe so that it drains into the burn, so that we do not get flooded, they then told us we could not do this as it would be an illegal discharge, but this is happening anyway, through no fault of our own. Our Title does not state that we have to take on the burden of anyone's sewerage nor pay to have it removed and we are at a loss to know how to proceed. Can anyone out there come up with a solution please? Many thanks.
 
Sorry to hear about your problems, but this is an Irish site, dealing with Irish financial and consumer matters. Scottish law and planning matters would not be our forté.
 
As mathepac has stated, this website is frequented by mainly Irish posters.

The level of replies is therefore likely to be limited, and in all cases you should take legal advice.

You should check whether or not this is an established historical outfall into your tank.

Rights can sometimes be established with prior use over a long period [rights of access, support and discharge, I think] and once established may be difficult to extinguish.

However, if this discharge and connection has only occurred recently and is a man-made not natural outfall, then I think you could be in a position to defend your title.

One Irish Reference is "The Law of Easements and Profits á Prendre" and a fairly thick tome it is too.

I bought a copy once because a client got a legal opinion from a senior counsel that differed with her understanding of her outfall rights.

A difficult read, but with the help of a barrister I know we spotted 4 options we could pursue - settled amicably in the end if I recall correctly.

I don't advise just buying this book and reading away - you really do need guidance from a good barrister/solicitor specialising in land law to assess and interpret how the law relates to your situation.

In relation to the neighbour's outfall causing the overflow from your tank, this seems to be putting your tank in contravention of its own terms of reference under Scottish Building Standards.

There is a degree of standardization across the UK and Ireland in this area of law and you might be held liable by the Council for any contravention in this regard.

If this therefore is a recent occurrence, you should establish your rights and act promptly, but I don't think the EPA may be the correct venue through which to address this.

By talking to the EPA you ran the risk of enforcement action as untreated sewage discharging onto common land could be regarded as a health problem.

Going to the Council could hardly make your situation much worse, so you might consider talking to the drainage and environmental departments and taking their advice.

Yours might not be the first such problem and Councils in general are helpful organizations.

Just remember the potential risk of enforcement action against you. :)
 
onq said:
As mathepac has stated, this website is frequented by mainly Irish posters...
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I didn't make that statement in my post, which stated in part -
Sorry to hear about your problems, but this is an Irish site, dealing with Irish financial and consumer matters...
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If you wish to make attributions, please do so accurately.
 
Many thanks indeed for all your contributions, especially ONQ - some of the points made are extremely useful. I had no idea I was dealing with an Irish site, but does it count if your grandparents originated from Co. Clare?

And yes, the next burials will be on top of a sewage pipe and if it breaks who gets to dig it up I ask?

Many thanks again.
 
Since my last post, I have contacted our local council who deny that there are any pipes going through their graveyard even though we have rodded them through and run dye tests. The previous owners of the house from which the sewage originates claimed on his SEPA certificate that all sewage goes to a closed soakaway and he has signed the paperwork to this effect. However, we have traced the pipe through the graveyard so someone has a very elastic arrangement with the truth.

Prior to the sale of the house, the old owners had JCB's in there digging like fury. The new owners of the house are absolutely distraught at just what is happening, knowing it is going to cost a lot of money to put the matter right , not only for them but us also. We have already lobbed out £15K in pipework in trying to resolve our problem, not knowing we were purportedly connected to another house and graveyard. The coffers here are rapidly depleting and we are down to a few milk bottle tops and a 'Guinness penknife and a Guinness porcelain Black Seal lampbase' !!

Oh! joy, the saga continues............
 
Rustyred said:
Since my last post, I have contacted our local council who deny that there are any pipes going through their graveyard even though we have rodded them through and run dye tests. The previous owners of the house from which the sewage originates claimed on his SEPA certificate that all sewage goes to a closed soakaway and he has signed the paperwork to this effect. However, we have traced the pipe through the graveyard so someone has a very elastic arrangement with the truth.

Prior to the sale of the house, the old owners had JCB's in there digging like fury. The new owners of the house are absolutely distraught at just what is happening, knowing it is going to cost a lot of money to put the matter right , not only for them but us also. We have already lobbed out £15K in pipework in trying to resolve our problem, not knowing we were purportedly connected to another house and graveyard. The coffers here are rapidly depleting and we are down to a few milk bottle tops and a 'Guinness penknife and a Guinness porcelain Black Seal lampbase' !!

Oh! joy, the saga continues............
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It appears from your information that the previous owners of the adjoining property have laid drains to alleviate a drainage problem on their land.

Is this the case?

If so the following may be relevant

Don't accept any denials from the Council.
That's not to say they are being unfair or bloody minded.
They may simply not be aware of what seems to be a new pipe installation.

I strongly suggest that you engage with the drainge department and the state solicitor for your area [the one that advises the Council] and ask for a meeting on site to clear this up.
It may do not harm to discuss the possible route of this process with the new owners as they appear not to have been the ones installing the pipes.
Of course it would help if you had paid for an independent recorded survey of the pipes and/or taken pictures of the work. :)

You would be well advised to work with your new naighbour to resolve the issue and both of you will need to engage with the Council.

There is some chance you might have redress against the previous owner of the house in that they may have committed several offences against you specifically, including

  • unauthorised deposition of effluent
  • slander on title
  • pollution of private land
but you'll need a good solicitor and engineer/architect to prepare the case strategy.

Also there may be the question of where the outfall ended up and proving they intended it to go there as opposed to it "finding its way there".

Given that the grveyard is owned by the Council and is not Common Land, the previous owners appear to have trespassed on their land and may have desecrated graves, both of which may be indictable offences.

Looks like the fun is only starting for you.

Keep us informed. :)
 
Hi again - nothing like a good discussion on sewage is there?!

Have taken photos of the pipe going through from our neighbours house across the burn and into the graveyard, (thence under the road and onwards to us) - thanks for that Onq - good thinking.

It would seem the pipe is an old clay one and it would suggest it has been there some considerable time. However, the previous owners of the house had, in order to sell their house in 2007 (new rules in Scotland apparently) claimed that their overflow went into a closed soakaway, ie no pipes coming out of it. We can find no trace of a closed soakaway and I think that because they had so much trouble with their septic tank, it was always overflowing into the burn, they have just pulled the wool and simply connected into the old system and SEPA have unwittingly gone along with it.

Their house has all its surface water ie., gutters etc., flowing into the septic tank and since it is a very large mansion house, many hundreds of gallons of water comes down to us and after last nights heavy rainfall it has washed our septic tank out completely.

On contacting SEPA I explained the situation and pointed out that we did not want a fine given that this was not our fault and they assured us that this would not happen since we have notified them of the problem and are prepared to sort it out. However, the Council are very reluctant to get involved and have said we should sort it out with our neighbours, but of course, I pointed out to them that they are our neighbours! It is currently with their legal department and they promised they would contact me this morning, but of course, this has not happened.

I am wondering whether we have any redress on the old neighbours if it can be proved that they falsified their registration with SEPA? As mentioned before, we have spent many thousands of pounds trying to put this matter right, never knowing that all this came from our neighbours house and presumably the graveyard. thanks very much for making me aware of it being an indictable offence to desecrate graves, the unauthorised deposition of effluent and pollution of private land all of which has been taken on board.

All the best
 
Rustyred said:
.. thanks very much for making me aware of it being an indictable offence to desecrate graves, the unauthorised deposition of effluent and pollution of private land all of which has been taken on board...
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Be very wary of taking legal advice from an internet site, particularly where Scottish law is concerned.

Scottish law is a specialist area and in many respects is very different to places where adaptions of "English law" apply (Ireland, Northern Ireland, USA, NZ, etc)
 
Thank you Mathepac - have taken that on board too. It's just good to hear different views because there is always someone who can put you in the right direction before you put your foot in it which is something we are trying to avoid in more ways than one!

Thank you I appreciate it.
 
Rustyred said:
Hi again - nothing like a good discussion on sewage is there?!
<snip>
I am wondering whether we have any redress on the old neighbours if it can be proved that they falsified their registration with SEPA? As mentioned before, we have spent many thousands of pounds trying to put this matter right, never knowing that all this came from our neighbours house and presumably the graveyard. thanks very much for making me aware of it being an indictable offence to desecrate graves, the unauthorised deposition of effluent and pollution of private land all of which has been taken on board.

All the best
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<nods>

You're very welcome re the photographic advice.
Since I got my digital camera I don't know myself.
I take gigabytes of photos on every single job now.
Saves time on redoing site visits and its a perfect record.

Moving right along, I think there may be two strands to this.

1. Sorting out the existing problem, which centres on SEPA and the Council, probably their Environmental Enforcement section, if they have one. You are already proactive on this and they appreciate it, so you can only keep going on the path you're on and see where it leads. If I were you I would be interested in finding out what contact, if any, the previous owners with either the Council or SEPA or any other official body. You might be surprised at what you discover. Either they took a huge risk, trespassing on, and laying pipes in, consecrated ground, or they may have gotten the nod.

2. Seeking some sort of compensation or financial redress and this may centre on SEPA, the Council or the workmen who did the work, since the birds appear to have flown the coop. With the prime movers gone, you are possibly left looking at pursuing the firm who carried out this work. Except that there may also be a land law catch here, in that the sewage is effectively being discharged through Council Land - I'm assuming their land is between you and the previous neighbours, is that correct? If that is so, the Council may in fact be liable for the unauthorized discharge onto your land, but the fact that is crosses a public road may have some bearing on this also as its not directly abutting you. Land law is odd.

You should also copper fasten places dates and times in your head on this - when the neighbours left, when the drainage work started, when it was completed, etc - because if matters do go to Court, you will need to offer the Judge this level of detailed information.

Finally have you a handle on the firm that did the work? Were they a "named" building firm. or just some bois with a digger for a week or two?
 
And Mathepac is correct in what he says.

Consider getting legal advice from your local solicitor before doing anything else.
 
Hi

It's just good commonsense to use a camera isn't it and I think it is an excellent idea to record all situations as you rightly do Onq. And yes, you are dead right again, the graveyard comes between us and our neighbours, so I will look into that point to. Yes again, the previous owners did have "Bildem and Bodgem" in, which is probably why we are in this mess now! I have certainly learned more and made to be aware of more, in the last couple of days on this site than I ever have - so thank you all for opening my eyes.

I have a terrible failure in that I tend to trust people too much, however, I am very good at keeping accurate records in my diary and your suggestion about doing that has prompted me to translate them in some semblance of order. Thankyou.

Since no response from the Council, I have emailed their CEO and wait to see their reply.

It certainly is good advice from you and Mathepac to see a good lawyer, which I intend to do, but it is equally good to go with some knowledge/information so that you can cut to the chase and not look quite so daft!

Thank you very much indeed for all your help which is greatly appreciated.

I am putting another post on about Latin translation vis-a-vis the Kirk Dyke Act 1597 and I am hoping someone out there could be as helpful as you all have.

Best Wishes.
 
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