Does Dublin really need 500 new tech jobs from Amazon?

Job announcements are always welcomed.

But I think we should review whether they are always a good idea.

Amazon will be employing 500 IT people, mainly in Dublin.

But is there a shortage of IT jobs in Dublin? I assume not. I think that there is a shortage of IT people to fill the jobs.

So many of these employees will come from abroad. Where will they live? No problem there, as their high salaries will allow them to push up the rents in Dublin.

So how do ordinary citizens benefit? There will be more jobs providing services to Amazon.
But where will these people live?

Would 500 unskilled jobs in Ballymun be more welcome?

Brendan

I'm always very skeptical of these kind of job announcements. I wonder how many of these 500 jobs are already filled and how many of the 500 will actually come about.

as for the 500 unskilled jobs in Ballymun - I wonder how many CV's would they attract? My contacts in the retail business are telling me that its increasingly difficult to find staff. I know one retailer who recruited staff from Poland during the boom - he says he will have to start recruiting there again soon as he cant find any staff here....

I think you can tie in most of these announcements (and they've been happening for a few years now) to the BEPS project.

"Amazon, which is headed up by Silicon Valley chief Jeff Bezos, is looking to add data centre technicians, software engineers, and customer support staff."

It isn't clear that all the jobs will be in IT. It is pretty clear that a number of them will be call-centre type jobs under the heading of "customer support staff."

http://www.independent.ie/business/jobs/amazon-to-create-500-new-jobs-in-dublin-base-34756759.html

Something to bear in mind is that Amazon employs 1700 staff - not just in Dublin. I'm not sure what government policy could lead to 500 unskilled jobs going to Ballymun but it seems like we can get 500 more jobs onto the additional that Amazon already have here. The thing with IT is that you need a critical mass of IT professionals in the one place. Very hard to send them anywhere that doesn't have that critical mass. So the choice is between saturation and stagnation.

Amazon are building a new data centre in Tallaght at the old Jacobs factory and work has already begun on the site. Ignoring the new announcement this morning, that will at least provide building and other trade work for over a year whilst it is built. I would expect, once it is built, a chunk of the 500 jobs will be based there. Basing places like this in Tallaght is good for the area and might actually make it easier for people in good high paying roles to live outside of Dublin in places like Naas or Kill and travel in easily.

It's also a good boost for the exchequer via increased PAYE and also for the local council in rates payments

Data Centre Technicians and Customer Service Reps would not be particularly high end jobs

OK, I got the impression that the jobs would be high end.

Amazon prompted my question, but it's not really about Amazon.

Is there any advantage in attracting more high end IT jobs to Dublin? Or would we be better off attracting low end or middle ranking jobs where there are unemployed Irish people available to take them up?

Are there any figures for the numbers of Irish people and non-nationals employed by Google and Facebook?

Maybe the long-term advantages outweigh any short term disadvantages in that even if there are shortages of available skilled Irish staff, our colleges will adapt and start producing the staff to meet the demand?

Brendan

Brendan Burgess said:

OK, I got the impression that the jobs would be high end.

Amazon prompted my question, but it's not really about Amazon.

Is there any advantage in attracting more high end IT jobs to Dublin? Or would we be better off attracting low end or middle ranking jobs where there are unemployed Irish people available to take them up?

Are there any figures for the numbers of Irish people and non-nationals employed by Google and Facebook?

Maybe the long-term advantages outweigh any short term disadvantages in that even if there are shortages of available skilled Irish staff, our colleges will adapt and start producing the staff to meet the demand?

Brendan

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We're not competitive in attracting low ranking jobs. Why would a multinational pay someone €20k a year here when they can get someone in Bangalore to do the same job for less then half the cost. ?

The media, including just this morning on Radio 1, called them "high skilled jobs", even though then they listed out roles including call centre jobs.

Brendan Burgess said:

Is there any advantage in attracting more high end IT jobs to Dublin? Or would we be better off attracting low end or middle ranking jobs where there are unemployed Irish people available to take them up?

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I'm not at all convinced that the latter strategy is feasible. What low end or middle ranking FDI jobs can we encourage to come here? I got the feeling that IT is a successful strategy, but that even with IDA support, we cannot compete on low end or middle ranking FDI jobs vis a vis lower cost destinations. We can compete at IT.
So the strategy is (a) chase IT (b) do nothing (c) economic policies to encourage general growth.
If you want to expend low end or middle ranking jobs, tourism would seem to be the way to go?

Are there any figures for the numbers of Irish people and non-nationals employed by Google and Facebook?

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I work in an Irish IT company, which is large for an Irish company but dwarfed by multinationals. Our new hires are running about 50-50.
Oracle recently announced 250 new roles for cloud sales specialists. I don't think there are 250 cloud sales specialists in all of Ireland right now, and they have made a definite commitment to re-skill applicants into the roles.

If 250 of the roles go to Irish staff, and 250 go to newcomers. Those 250 newcomers will be spending a lot of their money in Dublin. That's a boon to services sector which typically employs low to middle end jobs. And 500 high end jobs even within Amazon itself are going to need about 20% low to middle end jobs supporting them.

Maybe the long-term advantages outweigh any short term disadvantages in that even if there are shortages of available skilled Irish staff, our colleges will adapt and start producing the staff to meet the demand?

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That is a good point. We want LC students to be putting IT down as this is something we can compete at at a global scale.

Surely an increase in the number of people in high paid jobs be they Irish or people moving to Ireland will have a knock on effect on the local economy. More people in shops, restaurants, hairdressers, more children in crèches all of which employ people.

I suppose my main issue is that if we bring in a lot of well paid non-nationals, they will need somewhere to live. They will up the rents and that will push locals out of their houses or further down the country.

I assume that it's a good long term strategy to have high end jobs in Ireland. But we have a housing crisis at the moment, and are we not adding to it by bringing in people to do jobs which could be done elsewhere?

Or should we say "You are welcome but set up in Roscommon."?

Brendan

Brendan Burgess said:

I suppose my main issue is that if we bring in a lot of well paid non-nationals, they will need somewhere to live. They will up the rents and that will push locals out of their houses or further down the country.

I assume that it's a good long term strategy to have high end jobs in Ireland. But we have a housing crisis at the moment, and are we not adding to it by bringing in people to do jobs which could be done elsewhere?

Or should we say "You are welcome but set up in Roscommon."?

Brendan

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So you want to create a disincentive for companies to setup shop in Dublin because it will push locals out of their houses?
Solve the housing crisis by not creating any more jobs?

That sounds like a great plan.

Brendan Burgess said:

I assume that it's a good long term strategy to have high end jobs in Ireland. But we have a housing crisis at the moment, and are we not adding to it by bringing in people to do jobs which could be done elsewhere?
Or should we say "You are welcome but set up in Roscommon."?

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They aren't going to go to Roscommon. They might go to Cork or Galway. Or Gdansk. Or Zagreb. Or Lisbon. Or Belfast. Or Edinburgh. Or Cardiff. Or Manchester.

We can't stop people coming here. We're an EU member state. Closing the shop here for Irish jobs for Irish people isn't an option. It's another reason to tackle the housing supply issue and remember that as well as family homes, we need accomodation suitable for professionals like this.

I have been saying this for the past 5 years - I shake my head in near despair when I hear of the latest IT jobs announcement in Dublin.
From talking to people down Silicone Docks, they tell me that it's 80-20 (non-nationals v's Irish) in job hires for a lot of these big announcements as the skills and languages required are not available here (a lot of the jobs are sales and accounts support, apparently London gets the high end IT development roles).

So to me these job announcements mean more pressure on housing = higher rents/higher prices. And that causes a drive for higher wages, higher cost of goods etc.

But it's a good press release for the IDA and the relevant Minister. And Enda Kenny gets to cut a ribbon or 2.
Zero long term planning

Can we be sure that its the IDA driving this? I would strongly suspect external influences are becoming more and more important. It is the international climate out there, not the inducements we're offering.

(Maybe we should bring in some form of migrant-control? These latest migrants Johann-come-latelys are pushing Old- and New-Irish out of their homes)

odyssey06 said:

We can't stop people coming here.

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Setanta12 said:

Can we be sure that its the IDA driving this? I

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Very good points.

I had assumed that the IDA (or whatever they are called today) were lobbying these companies to set up here. The last time I was in the airport, someone tried to get me to sign up for some scheme to attract foreign companies.

Delboy said:

From talking to people down Silicone Docks, they tell me that it's 80-20 (non-nationals v's Irish)

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We clearly can't or shouldn't stop non EU nationals from working here. But should we be encouraging them to a place where there is a housing shortage?

Should we designate Leitrim as a new high tech centre and try to encourage foreign companies to locate there instead of in Dublin?

Brendan

Brendan Burgess said:

Or should we say "You are welcome but set up in Roscommon."?

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I assume that's a tongue in cheek comment Brendan! Other commentators have made the point that FDI jobs in Ireland will be middle to high end in line with our economy & competitiveness. The market for low & unskilled work is diminishing rapidly worldwide. This is the price (or benefit) of progress! Again as other posters have pointed out both the general economy and the broader workforce will benefit from the additional spending power of both the foreign and Irish additional workers attracted by these jobs.
Your point re Dublin location is an apt one and while an alternative small town location is unrealistic for obvious (infrastructural) reasons there is a strong case to be made for the Government to look at some alternative to Dublin that will have the population density to meet a level required for the high infrastructure etc to be a competitive alternative to our Capital for the multinationals. Both Cork and Limerick are currently too small and with some exceptions are largely ignored when FDI investment locations are being considered. However there is potential there to consider one or other of these cities as being suitable for growth and investment to a level that would be attractive to the multinationals. You rightly point out that Dublin is currently at saturation point and rent inflation and accommodation availability is currently and will continue to cause problems for those currently located there. Amazon already have a presence in Cork and yet seem determined to locate their expansion plans in Dublin presumably because they feel that Cork would not be attractive to their prospective employees!

Amazon won't move or open facilities inLeitrim, and, with respect, I doubt Bartek from Gdansk or Jupp from Amsterdam would have any interest in living there anyway. Mary Harney tried to tout Athlone to Paypal and was asked to sytop wasting their time, before they opened their centre near Blanchardstown.

John Moran suggested recently we should could consider developing another major urban centre, it didn't fly well in rural Ireland.
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It was suggested nearly 50 years ago in the Buchanan report that development should be concrenetated on a small number of urban area, small rural towns kicked up about.