Diesel vs electric

[Peanuts20]

I know quite a few families with 2 cars who have gone 1+1, 1 EV for around town, kids runs, even commuting into work and then a diesal for the longer journies to see family down the country, holidays etc.

 

[PGF2016]

I am in the market for a used car . 2-3 years old . Budget around 28k. I still believe diesel is the best way to go . The reliability is proven . I will likely keep the car for 10 years . My current diesel Octavia has 365k km and is still going fine . My question is to the electric car folks. 1. Have you noticed your esb bill going up ? 2. Are you concerned about depreciation? 3. Any concerns of the long term reliability of thr battery ? I just do not see the appeal on any level . Most people seem to disagree with me . To me for long term ownership it just does not add up .

Yes - the reliability is proven. EVs with less moving parts are far more reliable.
Depreciation - think EVs are in huge demand. This should not be a worry. And for those worried about new tech - well your primary concern should be the old tech in combustion engines that will be eliminated due to legislation.
Initial concerns about battery reliability have proven to be unfounded for the most part. The battery pack should outlive the car and can then be repurposed for energy storage.

Why would a greener (but not necessarily green), cheaper (when total cost of ownership is considered), quieter, faster accelerating and more reliable car not appeal?

I am not an EV owner as I don't change car very often but when the time comes I will be moving to an EV (don't tow, can install charger at home and don't drive huge mileage every day / week).

 

[Firefly]

If you do long journeys and/or lots of driving then an EV probably isn't the best option.

I'm thinking the opposite...those who do long daily commutes (upto 300km return) would really benefit from a EV...the running costs & servicing would be much, much cheaper.

 

[Purple]

I'm thinking the opposite...those who do long daily commutes (upto 300km return) would really benefit from a EV...the running costs & servicing would be much, much cheaper.

Possibly, but if they are doing longer daily journeys, in sales roles etc, then EV's won't fit the bill for a few years yet.

 

[arbitron]

If you do very little driving then a second hand car of any type is more environmentally friendly than a new car of any type since around half the carbon footprint of a car for its entire lifetime is produced during its manufacture.

That's not the case any more. For EVs, manufacturing is around 1/4 of its total carbon footprint, for ICE cars it's around 1/8th.

But over its lifetime an average ICE will have about 2x the carbon footprint of an EV, even if the EV is charged from electricity generated from a high-greenhouse gas source.

So a 2nd hand car is better than a new one, but a 2nd hand EV is best.

 

[banjopotato]

And of course there can be no second-hand EVs unless people buy new ones.

 

[Purple]

That's not the case any more. For EVs, manufacturing is around 1/4 of its total carbon footprint, for ICE cars it's around 1/8th.

Have you a source for that?

Over half the Carbon footprint of the battery production is up-stream (before the battery cell is produced: mining, refining etc) and CO2 produced from the actual battery production depends on how the electricity used n the factory was generated. The batteries produced in China are twice as dirty as EU batteries since they use coal in their power stations. The Chassis of an EV is also much more resource hungry since it is heavier. Most of the steel and aluminium in the world is made in China so that's coal powered too.

The actual car plants in the EU have reduced their Carbon footprint significantly in the last 25 years but that's because of a shift away from coal and oil burning power stations in Europe. That may get worse since Germany are closing many of their Green Power Stations and shifting to Russian gas.

But over its lifetime an average ICE will have about 2x the carbon footprint of an EV, even if the EV is charged from electricity generated from a high-greenhouse gas source.

Have you aa source for that?
We still burn a significant amount of oil and until recently our EV's were Turf powered.
We do generate a small amount of Green energy and import more green Nuclear from the UK and, soon, hopefully France.

So a 2nd hand car is better than a new one, but a 2nd hand EV is best.

I agree with you there.

 

[Purple]

And of course there can be no second-hand EVs unless people buy new ones.

Or the drive dies. So murdering an EV driver is green...

 

[Alkers86]

I am in the market for a used car . 2-3 years old . Budget around 28k. I still believe diesel is the best way to go . The reliability is proven . I will likely keep the car for 10 years . My current diesel Octavia has 365k km and is still going fine . My question is to the electric car folks. 1. Have you noticed your esb bill going up ? 2. Are you concerned about depreciation? 3. Any concerns of the long term reliability of thr battery ? I just do not see the appeal on any level . Most people seem to disagree with me . To me for long term ownership it just does not add up .

Your too vague in your posts for people to advise if an EV is suited to you.

• Have you got private off street parking?
• What is your typical daily/weekly/monthly average mileage? What sort of roads - rural / urban / motorway?
• Do you have access to a charger at work?
• Do you need to tow regularly? If so what weight?
• Do you have another car in the household / family?

Regarding your questions:

1. Yes, not significantly however.
2. No, the opposite has been true for EV's as of late
3. No, batteries will last as long as the vehicle unless they've been subject to very heavy use and not looked after at all.

If you don't see the appeal, do a few test drives. As alluded to above, even if there were no cost savings or green credentials, what is often overlooked is that your run of the mill EV is a far better driving experience than your run of the mill ICE car. Not including performance cars here.

 

[Firefly]

Possibly, but if they are doing longer daily journeys, in sales roles etc, then EV's won't fit the bill for a few years yet.

True but I'm thinking about the commuters from the border counties around Dublin who are currently driving diesels. An EV might save them a lot of cash.

 

[Jazz01]

Servicing has come up a few times in the these discussions - what is the (typical) cost of servicing for an EV ? Is it much lower than a typical diesel / petrol car (standard service) ? Has anyone here gone through servicing of their EVs in recent months that would share the serving costs ?

 

[losttheplot]

Servicing has come up a few times in the these discussions - what is the (typical) cost of servicing for an EV ? Is it much lower than a typical diesel / petrol car (standard service) ? Has anyone here gone through servicing of their EVs in recent months that would share the serving costs ?

The most I've paid for a service on a Hyundai Kona EV was €148. I've had 4 services: €59, €148, €73 and €96. I've also had two new tyres.
Fuel cost for 70,000km have been between €1,000 -€1,200.

It can be very dependent on the garage though.

 

[Zenith63]

Servicing has come up a few times in the these discussions - what is the (typical) cost of servicing for an EV ? Is it much lower than a typical diesel / petrol car (standard service) ? Has anyone here gone through servicing of their EVs in recent months that would share the serving costs ?

Service on our Nissan Leafs in Dublin is €120 per year each. You get the usual report back about needing tyres, brake pads, brake fluid change etc. which I tend to take to a regular shop around the corner to get done for half the price.

 

[Purple]

Many sources available but here is a nice summary with clear graphs: https://www.iea.org/data-and-statis...s-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle

See also: https://energy.mit.edu/wp-content/u...ts-into-Future-Mobility-Executive-Summary.pdf and https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth5

Those data and studies are all based on current electricity production mix, which is steadily becoming greener. On the other hand, petrol and diesel can never decarbonise.

EVs and Batteries for EVs that are made in China are significantly dirtier as China uses far more coal to generate power. The top 10 battery manufacturers are located in Asia, mainly in China. Around half of all EV batteries are made in China. Info here.
The PR from car manufacturers about going green should be taken with a large pinch of salt. Their track record in that area isn't exactly exemplary.
When we actually embrace clean energy that will change but until then I'll remain sceptical.

 

[Blackrock1]

EVs and Batteries for EVs that are made in China are significantly dirtier as China uses far more coal to generate power. The top 10 battery manufacturers are located in Asia, mainly in China. Around half of all EV batteries are made in China. Info here.
The PR from car manufacturers about going green should be taken with a large pinch of salt. Their track record in that area isn't exactly exemplary.
When we actually embrace clean energy that will change but until then I'll remain sceptical.

but would you agree if buying a new car (which i know is inherently not environmentally friendly) it would be better to go ev, even for your local environment i.e. the car is built now but at least you wont be burning diesel locally.

 

[Purple]

but would you agree if buying a new car (which i know is inherently not environmentally friendly) it would be better to go ev, even for your local environment i.e. the car is built now but at least you wont be burning diesel locally.

Yes, absolutely.

 

[T McGibney]

Yes, there is some disagreement. We're disagreeing here. That doesn't mean I'm "conceding" anything.

I gave my view, which is in line with the UN, NASA, the WWF and the EU, the CIA and the NSA, and I further pointed out that some people disagreed with that view.

There are people who give specific long term predictions, like that there'll be no snow in the UK in 20 years, and they are often wrong. That doesn't mean that the underlying data they are using to build their predictions are wrong.

If I say "It's cold so it's going to snow" and it turns out it doesn't show that doesn't mean it also wasn't cold.

But we all know there is disagreement somewhere on practically everything under the sun, probably even on the day of the week.


What was the point of you saying

There is some disagreement on what the long term impacts of climate change will be but we know what the climate is changing and we know that we are by far the biggest factor causing it to change.

except to acknowledge uncertainty?

Only the wilfully stupid disagree that climate change is happening or that we are the primary cause. It's tantamount to disagreeing that smoking increases the risk of lung cancer or that evolution is real.

Please don't restart the same passive aggressive insults that derailed earlier conversations. Your point here is superfluous as nobody here has yet questioned whether climate change is happening or whether we are the primary cause.

I have questioned your assertion that climate change-related catastrophe is certain, and you have, like it or not, conceded that it isn't.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Children

I have better things to do that sorting out fights amongst you.

If you want to argue about climate change, do so in Letting Off Steam or, even better, on some other site.

Brendan