Delays in rolling out vaccine

[Merowig]

Not accurate. I have a 20 something year old in Germany who has been vaccinated with J&J

RKI - Empfehlungen der STIKO - STIKO zu COVID-19-Impfstoff Janssen, STIKO zum Einsatz der COVID-19-Impfstoffe in der Schwangerschaft, Pressemitteilung

Der abgestimmte Beschlussentwurf und die wissenschaftliche Begründung befinden sich aktuell im Stellungnahmeverfahren mit den Bundesländern und den betroffenen Fachkreisen. Die Verabschiedung des Beschlusses wird nach Prüfung der Rückläufe und erneuter Beratung der STIKO erfolgen. Grundsätzlich...

www.rki.de

" Auf Basis der derzeit verfügbaren US-amerikanischen Daten und nach eingehenden Beratungen empfiehlt die STIKO, analog zur COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca (Vaxzevria), auch den COVID-19-Impfstoff Janssen in der Regel für Personen im Alter ab 60 Jahren zu verwenden. Der Einsatz der COVID-19 Vaccine Janssen unterhalb dieser Altersgrenze bleibt wie bei Vaxzevria jedoch weiterhin nach ärztlicher Aufklärung und bei individueller Risikoakzeptanz durch die impfwillige Person möglich."

The advise is still that only over 60 years old get vaccinated with AstraZeneca or J&J. It is possible ttp get it while being in a youger age group if you get medical advice from a doctor and you accept the risks. My statement is accurate. The recommendation is still in place - people can chose to go against that advice if they wish so.

 

[Merowig]

Romanians tend to have very little trust in their government and a large number live in very rural areas and simply won't take a vaccine.

With expiry dates of end July and end August and excess supply, it's sell them now or dump them in 4 weeks.

Also it is difficult to reach some communities in the mountains or in the Danube Delta.

Denmark is buying as well 1.1 million doses from Romania.

Israel proposed a similar deal to the Palestinians which they first agreed to but then they pushed back and didn't want that any longer.

 

[Prosper]

That seems like a reasonable rational to me. I considered same. On balance my view is that the mRNA is a better option. I'm not suggesting I'm right and you're wrong. AZ and J&J are no more tried and tested than Pfizer, they are all beta tests. Have they not all only been given emergency use authorization?

My point in my previous post is to question the soundness of your logic. I have no preference myself to either viral vector or mRNA vaccines. I'm not qualified to make the judgement between them. I was offered the AZ and I gladly accepted. If I'd been offered the Pfizer I'd have gladly accepted. I'm suggesting to you that if you are going to post comments such as "poor cousin vaccine" thereby undermining peoples confidence in the AZ and J&J jabs and effectively recommend to unvaccinated people that they wait a month (maybe two or more) for an mRNA jab rather than have a Viral Vector jab now, without considering the risk they are taking of catching Covid during the waiting period and running the risk of for example long covid, then I think you are being disingenuous.
I'm suggesting that you could be more balanced in your comments. So, you could make the point that Viral Vector vaccines have been proven as effective and safe over many years whereas mRNA vaccines are only in use less than a year. You could address the issue of the probability (miniscule risk) of suffering a severe blood clotting with the Viral Vector jab compared to the probability (much more likely) of catching covid while waiting to be called for the mRNA jab and suffering severe blood clotting (much much more likely than from the vaccine) or long covid with heart or lung damage by catching covid during the couple of months waiting period.

 

[Merowig]

My point in my previous post is to question the soundness of your logic. I have no preference myself to either viral vector or mRNA vaccines. I'm not qualified to make the judgement between them. I was offered the AZ and I gladly accepted. If I'd been offered the Pfizer I'd have gladly accepted. I'm suggesting to you that if you are going to post comments such as "poor cousin vaccine" thereby undermining peoples confidence in the AZ and J&J jabs and effectively recommend to unvaccinated people that they wait a month (maybe two or more) for an mRNA jab rather than have a Viral Vector jab now, without considering the risk they are taking of catching Covid during the waiting period and running the risk of for example long covid, then I think you are being disingenuous.
I'm suggesting that you could be more balanced in your comments. So, you could make the point that Viral Vector vaccines have been proven as effective and safe over many years whereas mRNA vaccines are only in use less than a year. You could address the issue of the probability (miniscule risk) of suffering a severe blood clotting with the Viral Vector jab compared to the probability (much more likely) of catching covid while waiting to be called for the mRNA jab and suffering severe blood clotting (much much more likely than from the vaccine) or long covid with heart or lung damage by catching covid during the couple of months waiting period.

As previously stated some governments (which I personally trust more than the Irish government) still recommend that only older people get AstraZeneca or J&J. Some other countries have ditched AZ and/or J&J completely and have not resumed it. Also the EU did not extend the contract with AstraZeneca - in the future you will have only mRNA vaccines.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

It should also be noted that both Pfizer and Modernas vaccines do have risks and one is heart inflammation. The US military have given over 2.3m doses to personnel and 23 cases have been identified so far, again a tiny risk , like blood clots.

I read somewhere that the FDA have mandated that the information sheet that accompanies the vaccines need to highlight this.

So, every vaccine has side effects and some are severe and in some cases fatal, but each vaccine also is very effective in preventing death and serious illness .

I just cannot understand why people assign "grades" .

 

[Merowig]

It should also be noted that both Pfizer and Modernas vaccines do have risks and one is heart inflammation. The US military have given over 2.3m doses to personnel and 23 cases have been identified so far, again a tiny risk , like blood clots.

I read somewhere that the FDA have mandated that the information sheet that accompanies the vaccines need to highlight this.

So, every vaccine has side effects and some are severe and in some cases fatal, but each vaccine also is very effective in preventing death and serious illness .

Also several cases of the heart inflammation in Israel (afaik it was first observed there) and last time I checked it was 92 cases in Germany.
It mainly effects younger males but looks it is less risky/of an issue than the blood clots.

 

[EmmDee]

The advise is still that only over 60 years old get vaccinated with AstraZeneca or J&J. It is possible ttp get it while being in a youger age group if you get medical advice from a doctor and you accept the risks. My statement is accurate. The recommendation is still in place - people can chose to go against that advice if they wish so.

You don't need medical advice and you don't need to go through any "risk acceptance" hoops - at least not in some regions

Koch Institute doesn't determine regional policies - it may advise but doesn't determine policies.

 

[michaelm]

I'm suggesting that you could be more balanced in your comments.

Lets try.

In my view vaccines are a big part of the solution and the benefits of the approved vaccines outweigh the associated risks in the general population. It does seem that risks associated with the viral vector vaccines are far more likely to impact younger people than older people. Conversely, the virus is far less likely to trouble younger people than older people. This is reflected in different jurisdictions with varying caveats specifically surrounding giving Covid vector viral vaccines to younger people. This combined with the reported better efficacy and effectiveness against variants would lead me to chose mRNA over viral vector (despite the relatively new techniques and the recently reported mild self-limiting myocarditis).

It seems the choice facing younger people is to opt for a virus vector now or wait till next month for an mRNA. My advise to my older children, and no one else, is to wait. If you, or others, see my view as illogical or disingenuous, or indeed elitist, I won't lose any sleep.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

Lets try.

In my view vaccines are a big part of the solution and the benefits of the approved vaccines outweigh the associated risks in the general population. It does seem that risks associated with the viral vector vaccines are far more likely to impact younger people than older people. Conversely, the virus is far less likely to trouble younger people than older people. This is reflected in different jurisdictions with varying caveats specifically surrounding giving Covid vector viral vaccines to younger people. This combined with the reported better efficacy and effectiveness against variants would lead me to chose mRNA over viral vector (despite the relatively new techniques and the recently reported mild self-limiting myocarditis).

It seems the choice facing younger people is to opt for a virus vector now or wait till next month for an mRNA. My advise to my older children, and no one else, is to wait. If you, or others, see my view as illogical or disingenuous, or indeed elitist, I won't lose any sleep.

It's your decision but do we have to hear about it ?
Most of us try and pass on information to inform each other and allay fears that some people have, you talk about yourself.

 

[michaelm]

It's your decision but do we have to hear about it ?

Argo. I hadn't realised that only vaccine cheerleading was permitted. Just hover over my username and click 'Ignore'.

@Prosper Re probabilities, I understand that the risks are statistically tiny. Interestingly this modelling study suggests that for the 18-29 age group the chances of death from an AZ clot, albeit miniscule, is 3 times that of death from Covid. Sacrebleu.

 

[Merowig]

You don't need medical advice and you don't need to go through any "risk acceptance" hoops - at least not in some regions

Koch Institute doesn't determine regional policies - it may advise but doesn't determine policies.

The Website of the Ministry of Health states the same though as the RKI. https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/coronavirus/faq-covid-19-impfung.html
Bavaria as well: https://www.stmgp.bayern.de/coronavirus/impfung/

Coronavirus

Coronavirus

www.tagesschau.de

Der Impfstoff von AstraZeneca ist in drei Bundesländern für alle Altersgruppen freigegeben worden: Nach Sachsen entschieden auch Mecklenburg-Vorpommern und Bayern, die Priorisierung für diesen Impfstoff komplett aufzuheben. Bei Menschen unter 60 Jahren ist jedoch vor dem Spritzen eine ausführliche Beratung durch den Impfarzt notwendig, wie die Gesundheitsministerien mitteilten.

The provinces still require extensive advise from the Doctor in case for the under 60s.
Other countries like Denmark and Norway stopped the usage completely. AstraZeneca was bought extensively in Eastern Europe because it is cheaper and is partially responsible for some of the vaccination hesitancy observed there.

In most of the cases the advise of the RKI is followed.

 

[Prosper]

for the 18-29 age group the chances of death from an AZ clot, albeit miniscule, is 3 times that of death from Covid.

Agreed, chances of death are tiny but what about long term health effects? You ignored this point that I made earlier.

You could address the issue of the probability (miniscule risk) of suffering a severe blood clotting with the Viral Vector jab compared to the probability (much more likely) of catching covid while waiting to be called for the mRNA jab and suffering severe blood clotting (much much more likely than from the vaccine) or long covid with heart or lung damage by catching covid during the couple of months waiting period.

 

[peemac]

Some other countries have ditched AZ and/or J&J completely and have not resumed it. Also the EU did not extend the contract with AstraZeneca - in the future you will have only mRNA vaccines.

Simple reasoning for this is Astra zeneca botched initial delivery timeframes and prioritised the UK to the detriment of their agreement with Europe.

Pfizer on the other hand made huge efforts to meet their commitments and then delivered additional supplies.

Pfizer also ramped up manufacturing and effectively from aug will be more than able to supply more than enough for the EU demand.

So why would anyone enter a new agreement with a company that did not keep or even try to keep to their delivery schedule and proved themselves to be very unreliable?

 

[EmmDee]

The provinces still require extensive advise from the Doctor in case for the under 60s.

You keep saying that - it's just not accurate. You can book a J&J or AZ vaccination in Berlin without a Doctor referral and with hardly any waiting time.

 

[peemac]

Looks like the % numbers here are going to pass out the UK % numbers this week.

There's a lot of vaccine hesitation in the UK and that's slowing the take up whereas here, possibly due to potential restrictions on unvaccinated people accessing pubs and restaurants, take up is extremely high.

The UK "experiment" on lifting restrictions will be very interesting to follow.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

The UK "experiment" on lifting restrictions will be very interesting to follow.

Covid: Cases in UK rise above 30,000 for first time since January

More than 32,500 confirmed cases have been reported in the country, up 43% on the same day last week.

www.bbc.com

Look at what Boris said , nobody else has said this not even his CMO or any other agency who are dealing with the pandemic.

 

[Prosper]

Looks like the % numbers here are going to pass out the UK % numbers this week.

Last week there was a day that we vaccinated more than 50,000 people and it was double the UK per capita rate on that day. I think we've been averaging over 50,000 per day since whereas the UK are averaging about 300,000 a day. That's less than half our rate. I assume their rate has slowed down and ours has picked up a bit. Maybe the UK is now getting to the age cohort that is vaccine hesitant. Also, I think vaccine hesitancy is generally higher in the UK than in Ireland.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

680,000 doses received last week, AZ dropped in 300,000 and still was second, Pfizer still consistent at 315k average over the last few weeks.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

From The Journal,


"CABINET WAS TOLD today that of the 124 patients admitted to ICU with Covid-19 between 24 March and 23 June, 18 patients had received one dose of a vaccine.
Five had received two doses of the vaccine, but just one patient was identified as having received their second dose more than 14 days prior to their positive test result.
This case has been classified as a “breakthrough infection”.
Breakthrough infections, which occur when fully vaccinated people are infected, are an entirely expected part of any vaccination process. "

Obviously these are small numbers and the Delta variant wasn't as prevalent as it is now.
However they highlight the effects of the vaccination program on the serious illness and the importance of 2 doses .

I view this as excellent news and hopefully with the increase in cases that will inevitably come hospitalisations and ICU figures remain manageable.

During the weekend it was said on the BBC that hospitalisation was approximately 13% of cases last year, but the figure now lies between 1and 3% , but the effects of the Delta variant were not yet fully understood.

 

[Purple]

"CABINET WAS TOLD today that of the 124 patients admitted to ICU with Covid-19 between 24 March and 23 June, 18 patients had received one dose of a vaccine.

I know it's off topic but why does everyone leave the "The" out when talking about the Government and the Cabinet?
"Government" is used when talking about the idea of government rather than a specific government. The same goes for "Cabinet". It annoys me far more than it should.