Delays in rolling out vaccine

NPR 24 US


THE CORONAVIRUS CRISIS



The end of this pandemic sometimes gets boiled down to two words: herd immunity.
But now, as an academic debate swirls over when or even if America can get to a high enough percentage of people with immunity to reach that goal, some scientists say it's time for the public to stop worrying about it.
"I think we're focusing too much of our time, our effort, on quibbling over a number," says Lauren Ancel Meyers, a professor at the University of Texas at Austin and head of the university's COVID-19 Modeling Consortium. Instead, Meyers and others say the public should follow one simple piece of advice: Get vaccinated.

How Herd Immunity Works — And What Stands In Its Way


"This pandemic ends when enough people are protected from severe illness, and selfishly you want to be protected from severe illness," says Devi Sridhar, a professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland.

Vaccination "helps you and it helps your community."


What does herd immunity mean anyway?

The idea of herd immunity began with cows, not people. In 1916, veterinarian Adolph Eichhorn and colleagues noticed that a herd of cattle could become collectively immune to a disease if enough animals survived the initial infection.

Since then, the herd immunity threshold has become a commonly used term in epidemiology to refer to the mathematical tipping point of an infectious disease outbreak. When a certain percentage of people are immune, either through infection or vaccination, a virus runs out of places to spread. The epidemic — or, in this case, the pandemic — fades, and life goes back.


The threshold for herd immunity can vary widely from disease to disease. And with so many unknowns about the coronavirus, it's been a topic of much discussion. Over the course of the pandemic, estimates for the threshold needed to reach herd immunity have fluctuated from as low as 20% to as high as 90% or more of population.

The term herd immunity remained largely in academic circles until the spring of 2020. That's when, as the coronavirus spread across Europe, politicians such as British Prime Minister Boris Johnson suddenly found themselves talking about it on television.
The group of scientists advising Johnson at the time, according to Sridhar, included many modelers of the pandemic. Modelers build computer simulations, or models, of the future.
It was a time before vaccines, when the virus looked as though it was ripping through Asia and Italy unchecked. Some of the modelers Johnson was listening to "ran projections that showed that this was unstoppable, uncontrollable," Sridhar says. "And this led to this approach of 'herd immunity,' which is just let the virus go, let nature take its course."
It was the "take it on the chin" strategy as described by Johnson. This flavor of herd immunity was an appealing idea for conservative politicians and pundits who wanted to see economies kept open. But the policy was never enacted in Britain, in part because modelers at Imperial College London showed just how bad things could get. Today, it's widely accepted that letting the coronavirus run unfettered through a population would have led to an even more staggering death toll.
"I think if we could go back in time and they were completely honest, both the public health advisers and the leadership would say that's the wrong approach," Sridhar says.


But herd immunity stuck around in the public consciousness. Even into last fall, the Trump administration continued to toy with the idea of reaching herd immunity by allowing the coronavirus to spread mostly unchecked.
Then, when the first vaccines rolled out in December, the term got even more life — this time focusing on the immunity that's gained through vaccination. Experts such as presidential adviser Dr. Anthony Fauci began talking a lot about it, with a best guess goal of 75% to 85% nationally. "If you get that level of herd immunity, you could essentially crush this outbreak in this country," Fauci said during an interview on NPR's Morning Edition.
The appeal of this notion is clear. Achieving herd immunity sounds like a simple goal that spells the end of the coronavirus. It feels concrete — something to grab onto in a time filled with so much uncertainty, a finish line for which to strive.
But the problem with framing the goal that way, say the scientists who actually build the models, is that the herd immunity threshold is far harder to calculate reliably than many in the public realize.
Computer models aren't exactly like real life
In any model of the pandemic, "we make a bunch of assumptions that we know aren't true," says Samuel Scarpino, director of the Emergent Epidemics Lab at Northeastern University. For example, he says, computer models often drastically oversimplify the way people interact with each other, assuming for example, that "the way I decide who I'm going to have lunch with is that I put everybody in a bag and I shake the bag up and I draw somebody out at random and that's who I have lunch with."


In the real world, people only have lunch with a relatively small number of social contacts — not a random sampling of the community — and that changes the herd immunity threshold.
"It's also complicated by the fact that we may not have an even distribution of immunity," Meyers says. The herd immunity threshold is usually presented as a single, overall percentage of a population. But in a given city, "you may hear numbers like 50% of a population are immunized. But is that really 50% in every single neighborhood? Or do we have some pockets of very high levels of immunity and other pockets of low levels of immunity?"
The distinction matters. If the east side of a city is immunized and the west side isn't, then an outbreak could still spread quickly in that unimmunized area and overwhelm hospitals.
Finally, the herd immunity threshold doesn't actually mean you won't have new infections at some point in the future. "Even after you've reached the herd immunity threshold, you can still get little stuttering chains of infection going on within that population," says Erin Mordecai, a professor of biology at Stanford University. "It's just that on average the disease won't grow at that point."
"People talk about herd immunity as if it's sort of the end point, you either have it or you don't, and once you have it you keep it," says Marc Lipsitch at Harvard University. "That's not true either."
Factors such as the spread of new variants, or a time of year that drives more people indoors, or otherwise leads to more mixing, can cause huge swings in how many people need to be immune to reach or maintain herd immunity.
Since December, there have been real-world complications that have clouded the outlook for reaching the herd immunity threshold. Data out of Asia and Brazil suggests reinfection may be more common than thought. Vaccine hesitancy has emerged as an issue, as has the rise of more transmissible variants, which can drastically drive up the percentage of people who would need to be immunized to get to herd immunity. Based on current conditions, and the fact that young children are not yet eligible for vaccination, Lipsitch says he believes as much as 90% to 100% of adults would need to get vaccinated to cross the threshold.
"Based on the best calculations I know how to do, it will be impossible or very difficult to reach [herd immunity] in many parts of the United States," he says.
But that could all change again in the future, depending on new real-world conditions.
And in the end, Mordecai says, it may not matter so much, in terms of corralling the virus enough so that the number of severe cases of COVID-19 significantly drops.
"Our vaccine campaigns rarely reach the level that we actually have herd immunity to the flu," Mordecai points out. "And yet most years we're able to avoid major pandemics of the flu." A combination of immunity through vaccination and prior infection provides a high enough level of protection that the hospitals are never overwhelmed, she says. Even though the coronavirus is a far more serious disease, "that's the kind of thing that could happen with COVID-19."
In fact, none of the scientists interviewed says they believe the herd immunity threshold is the right goal for the public to worry about — they urge emphasizing vaccination instead. Sridhar points to the original political origins of the herd immunity discussion.
"Many high-income countries, because we have people who are very, very clever, have tried to use math to outsmart a problem that is basically common sense," Sridhar says. "More infections are bad, and the way to stop them is to get vaccinated. It's that simple."
Meyers says she believes computer models have been extremely helpful in this pandemic as a warning to policymakers, and to devise local policies for cities and states. But she agrees the elevation of the herd immunity threshold in particular hasn't been useful.
Instead, she says, the computer models all show a clear way forward: "Every vaccination gets us a step closer, every vaccination makes our community, our society a safer, place.

From NPR USA , and I copied as link wouldn't work and removed advertising which was under every 2nd paragraph.
 
Not to suggest that they should stop vaccinating...
But the US probably has so many people with prior immunity (detected & undetected covid cases) that together with the vaccinated they may have already be coralling the virus. I suspect also there's some % of the population with some natural or prior protection against covid, there were too many cases of families living in same house where only some of the adults were infected.
 
Not to suggest that they should stop vaccinating...
But the US probably has so many people with prior immunity (detected & undetected covid cases) that together with the vaccinated they may have already be coralling the virus. I suspect also there's some % of the population with some natural or prior protection against covid, there were too many cases of families living in same house where only some of the adults were infected.
I think we are a long way from understanding all those variables and nuances but they must be a factor in the way the virus didn't infect everyone in situations like you referred to or the majority of the population, ok hygiene and restrictions helped but I doubt its the only reason.

Another thing that crossed my mind is , would the vaccine manufacturers have striven for the high levels of immunity granted by all vaccines on the market?

One thing is for certain there's going to be a lot of scientific studies over the next 10, 20 years. The original virus showed up 20 years ago next year and we still don't really know much.
 
Last edited:
An epidemiologist on the BBC just now said countries, especially the UK might have to change their respective vaccine rollouts in order to suppress and control the risks associated with the variants. He was suggesting that the age based rollout be abandoned, now that the elderly and vulnerable are vaccinated, and all eligible people in those areas be vaccinated in order to prevent transmission outside an area.

He was particularly referring to the high incidence rates of the Indian variant that is now the main cause of cases in Bolton and probably the Greater Manchester area.

It's an interesting point and might actually be another way of combating the threat the variants pose.
 
An epidemiologist on the BBC just now said countries, especially the UK might have to change their respective vaccine rollouts in order to suppress and control the risks associated with the variants. He was suggesting that the age based rollout be abandoned, now that the elderly and vulnerable are vaccinated, and all eligible people in those areas be vaccinated in order to prevent transmission outside an area.

He was particularly referring to the high incidence rates of the Indian variant that is now the main cause of cases in Bolton and probably the Greater Manchester area.

It's an interesting point and might actually be another way of combating the threat the variants pose.
Interesting, but it also seems a bit like whack-a-mole unless they are going to lockdown that particularly region and not let anyone in or out.
 
Interesting, but it also seems a bit like whack-a-mole unless they are going to lockdown that particularly region and not let anyone in or out.
Preventing movement would be an issue.

Her indoors said its a good idea but vaccines would probably be sat in warehouses or lead to deferral of vaccines elsewhere allowing other areas to be susceptible to outbreaks.
 
I registered for the vaccine last week and got an appointment for the first shot for tomorrow evening. To my surprise the text says that the type of vaccine that I will get is the Astra Zeneca. Hasn't the EU stopped ordering the Astra Zeneca vaccines ? I thought that starting a few weeks ago all new vaccines offered would be Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson. I don't really mind what type of vaccine I'll get but was just surprised that I would get the AZ. They must be some leftovers of older orders but wonder if the second shot still has to be AZ or can be any other type, now that apparently the AZ vaccines will not be ordered any more ?

Franc
 
AFAIK the EU have stopped future orders of AZ, but from July onwards, something like that. AZ are still fulfilling outstanding orders.
 
I registered for the vaccine last week and got an appointment for the first shot for tomorrow evening. To my surprise the text says that the type of vaccine that I will get is the Astra Zeneca. Hasn't the EU stopped ordering the Astra Zeneca vaccines ? I thought that starting a few weeks ago all new vaccines offered would be Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson. I don't really mind what type of vaccine I'll get but was just surprised that I would get the AZ. They must be some leftovers of older orders but wonder if the second shot still has to be AZ or can be any other type, now that apparently the AZ vaccines will not be ordered any more ?

Franc
They might not be ordered but AZ still has to fulfil the order placed last August is my understanding of the situation.
The EU ordered 400m(edit) and paid €340m for the order, even if they said they'd take €340m worth that would be 300m doses, and Astrazeneca are no where near delivering that quantity.

The contract runs until 31st December 2021
 
Last edited:

Seems never ending now, but the UK are going to trial from June the effectiveness and need for the booster jab.
It'll be interesting to learn what the data will say and what decisions will be made .
 

This is good news , however it will mean yet another review of our and most other countries rollouts.
The gap between doses especially in the AZ vaccine needs examination and I would say it needs to be at min manufacturers original guidelines. Pfizer/BioNTech the same 21 days min.

While I think 90% protection is probably too high, and 60plus % after first dose is acceptable I think 30 odd% from first doses is probably too low to continue to control the virus.

Again its great news, but a headache in some respects.
 
Some 49-year-olds turned away from J&J vaccine appointments after ‘error’
via The Irish Times

This really is unbelievable. These people wanted the J&J, it was available at the vaccination centre, but they were sent home without being vaccinated.
 
I see Johnson vaccine now delayed deliveries and falling significantly short on promised deliveries. The question why is there no court cases threatened and a big media campaign targeted at Johnson like there was for the AZ vaccine earlier. Looks like Johnson are facing the exact same production difficulties as AZ a few months ago.
 
I see Johnson vaccine now delayed deliveries and falling significantly short on promised deliveries. The question why is there no court cases threatened and a big media campaign targeted at Johnson like there was for the AZ vaccine earlier. Looks like Johnson are facing the exact same production difficulties as AZ a few months ago.
Everybody except Pfizer has had production difficulties. Then we consider some of the biggest players in vaccines like Sanofi failed to produce a vaccine.
I think the issue specifically with AZ was perception of where the vaccines were going, but that's one for the lawyers and the merits of signing a contract under UK law (which favours purchasers) v Belgian law.

The delay with Johnson might have some silver lining... German researchers think they have identified reason for clotting in the adenovirus based vaccines. A tweak to the vaccine may address it. So it would be better to get more of the fixed ones but not sure how fast that could be done.
The hope all along was the one dose easily rolled out Johnson vaccine could be used in pharmacies etc for the 20 and 30 somethings.
 
I see Johnson vaccine now delayed deliveries and falling significantly short on promised deliveries. The question why is there no court cases threatened and a big media campaign targeted at Johnson like there was for the AZ vaccine earlier. Looks like Johnson are facing the exact same production difficulties as AZ a few months ago.
Well the issues that J&J have are effecting it's global supply, they are having issues in the States too.
AZ didn't have manufacturing issues like this, as we now know AZ were supplying the UK locally, and other countries from EU factories, while not attempting to fulfil its EU contract, which we will find out who was right after the court case.

The J&J issues were flagged 3 weeks ago by J&J and around the same time Pfizer/BioNTech increased substantially their supplies, the bad news was forgotten

I really don't know how they can say they were expecting 200,000 by the end of June when we have received 12000 a week over the last 5 weeks.


As of the 25th of May received 60200 and last week used 39k with 1k in the weeks before.
 
Everybody except Pfizer has had production difficulties. Then we consider some of the biggest players in vaccines like Sanofi failed to produce a vaccine.
I think the issue specifically with AZ was perception of where the vaccines were going, but that's one for the lawyers and the merits of signing a contract under UK law (which favours purchasers) v Belgian law.

The delay with Johnson might have some silver lining... German researchers think they have identified reason for clotting in the adenovirus based vaccines. A tweak to the vaccine may address it. So it would be better to get more of the fixed ones but not sure how fast that could be done.
The hope all along was the one dose easily rolled out Johnson vaccine could be used in pharmacies etc for the 20 and 30 somethings.
Looks like Sanofi will be good to go in October/November phase 3 starting next month
 
The question why is there no court cases threatened and a big media campaign targeted at Johnson like there was for the AZ vaccine earlier
Maybe because the J&J vaccine, due to it being one shot and not needing very low temperature storage, is being diverted to developing countries due to the fear that a super strain of Covid will emerge from where the virus is spreading out of control.
 
Maybe because the J&J vaccine, due to it being one shot and not needing very low temperature storage, is being diverted to developing countries due to the fear that a super strain of Covid will emerge from where the virus is spreading out of control.
They aren't that altruistic, it's well documented that production isn't going well, and when it was one of their fill finish partners mixed up their vaccine with AZ and 15 million doses were trashed.
There is a major shortage of materials too, that's why Pfizer are trying to bring as much as possible "in house" .

There's probably to many vaccines being produced or in late development now and ingredients are limited.
 
I see Johnson vaccine now delayed deliveries and falling significantly short on promised deliveries. The question why is there no court cases threatened and a big media campaign targeted at Johnson like there was for the AZ vaccine earlier. Looks like Johnson are facing the exact same production difficulties as AZ a few months ago.

The main supplies of J&J were never due before June. Even in the US, they are not expecting significant numbers until next month. You will probably hear more noise if it starts getting to 2-3 months later or even 6 months later and they still haven't delivered like you saw with AZ.

My wife is just back from New York. You couldn't walk down a street without the option of getting a vaccine being thrown at you. Nearly 50% of the population fully vaccinated and the only thing slowing them down is vaccine hesitancy. They are offering lotteries, scholarship prizes, free booze to encourage people to come forward. There are walk in vaccine centres all over the place.

When you see the problems facing the rest of the world with vaccines even in rich countries like Europe and Japan never mind the poorer countries, it really show the inequality in the production and distribution of vaccines. The US have exported a fraction of the amount of vaccines that the EU have. They are sitting on vast amounts of vaccines that they are struggling to even use.
 
Back
Top