Delays in rolling out vaccine

[Paul O Mahoney]

So he doesn't really know then. It's like he is constantly "distracting" and talking about what might happen.

Well, he can only go on what information is available, his staff would have thought that we were getting x number of Astrazeneca vaccines and y number of Pfizer/BioNTech vaccines, those figures were based on agreements with the EU and what the EU agreed with manufacturers .

And to be fair I doubt very much he is purposely sending out false information.

People's expectations are another issue here, they seem to think that the vaccine will be the panacea of all our ills , they aren't, and the population need to accept this.

 

[Merowig]

I hope that any company producing vaccines will not sell their production to any country who approaches them with a large cheque. I hope the EU have ordered enough, because these companies once they have fulfilled their contract will be free to sell to the highest bidder.

Companies like Pfizer and Moderna already sold future production batches to countries like the US and Israel who bought up large quantities from multiple producers without knowing which one will work and when it will be available. Also they were willing to pay much more.
The EU was very reluctant to do the same and started late and with smaller numbers ordered with that kind of contracts

 

[Leo]

So he doesn't really know then. It's like he is constantly "distracting" and talking about what might happen.

In fairness, the only alternative to the current approach is to only comment on, and commit to vaccinations when we have the vaccine in the country. No one would be happy with that.

 

[joe sod]

The EU was very reluctant to do the same and started late and with smaller numbers ordered with that kind of contracts

I wonder why the reluctance, was it a desire to be seen as virtuous and not ouybidding poorer countries or something? In any case I doubt the member countries will thank them for their virtue. I can see the European medicines agency becoming obsolete after this as countries decide to go it alone or form their own alliances with like minded countries.

 

[Merowig]

I wonder why the reluctance, was it a desire to be seen as virtuous and not ouybidding poorer countries or something? In any case I doubt the member countries will thank them for their virtue. I can see the European medicines agency becoming obsolete after this as countries decide to go it alone or form their own alliances with like minded countries.

Cyprus tries to get potential Israeli surplus vaccine - this might be even perhaps legal as they go to a government directly and not to a pharmaceutical company - Germany might do its own additional deal as well with BionTech/Pfizer but that would be "illegal"
But on the other hand I doubt a sanction mechanism is in place for side deals

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

Cyprus tries to get potential Israeli surplus vaccine - this might be even perhaps legal as they go to a government directly and not to a pharmaceutical company - Germany might do its own additional deal as well with BionTech/Pfizer but that would be "illegal"
But on the other hand I doubt a sanction mechanism is in place for side deals

And how would Pfizer make these additional vaccines given that its at full capacity now and doesn't have any more plants that can be used to produce more?

 

[Merowig]

And how would Pfizer make these additional vaccines given that its at full capacity now and doesn't have any more plants that can be used to produce more?

The same like Israel is getting additional unscheduled deliveries - someone else will get delayed deliveries due to "technical problems".


On the case of Germany

Commission lets Germany off the hook for coronavirus vaccine solidarity breach

Germany confirms it will receive 30 million extra BioNTech/Pfizer doses outside of EU deal.

www.politico.eu

Germany secured 50 million vaccine doses from CureVac, BioNTech on top of EU supplies - document

The German government signed two preliminary deals with German biotech firms BioNTech and CureVac in the summer to secure 50 million doses of their COVID-19 vaccines, according to a health ministry document and an official.

www.reuters.com

On Israel getting additional deliveries

Israel in Deal With Pfizer to Speed Vaccine Deliveries for Data

www.bloomberg.com

.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

The same like Israel is getting additional unscheduled deliveries - someone else will get delayed deliveries due to "technical problems".

Israel are getting unscheduled deliveries? I assume you can provide a link to this.

So you are saying that Pfizer will do deals and pretend that they have issues to cover the vaccines that are being shipped to countries that have done a deal privately?

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

The same like Israel is getting additional unscheduled deliveries - someone else will get delayed deliveries due to "technical problems".


On the case of Germany

Commission lets Germany off the hook for coronavirus vaccine solidarity breach

Germany confirms it will receive 30 million extra BioNTech/Pfizer doses outside of EU deal.

www.politico.eu

Germany secured 50 million vaccine doses from CureVac, BioNTech on top of EU supplies - document

The German government signed two preliminary deals with German biotech firms BioNTech and CureVac in the summer to secure 50 million doses of their COVID-19 vaccines, according to a health ministry document and an official.

www.reuters.com

On Israel getting additional deliveries

Israel in Deal With Pfizer to Speed Vaccine Deliveries for Data

www.bloomberg.com

.

So Israel did a deal with Pfizer for more vaccines in order to get detailed analysis on the vaccines effects.......is that "unscheduled deliveries "?
Germany did a deal with BioNTech, which the vaccines will come from BioNTechs production when that starts, whenever that will be.

 

[Merowig]

I have linked above already on Israel - Pfizer speeds up deliveries to Israel after Netanyahu made some phone calls.
The EU behaved and still behaves slowly - Israel pays e.g. double what the EU pays to Pfizer on the other hand and is giving out data back to them (Ireland wouldn't be able although a lot of IT companies pay here taxes nominally )

The US also spent a lot of money on securing deliveries from Pfizer and others early - and also paying more than Europe for it.

(...)
Far from having ordered too little of the “American” vaccine, the EU sat back while the US and other countries stocked up on doses of a vaccine that was created and produced in a German lab. The EU is guilty not of protectionism, but of institutional inflexibility. The slow vaccine rollout in many European countries is the result of the EU’s failure to coordinate the interests of the various member states. Whereas some countries balked at the price of BioNTech’s mRNA vaccine, others were skeptical about its new gene-based technological underpinnings, and still others simply did not recognize the urgency of the situation, having assumed that the worst of the pandemic had already passed.
(...)
While the US, the United Kingdom, Japan, and Canada jostled last July and August to secure huge batches of the BioNTech vaccine, the EU initially placed its orders only with Sanofi and AstraZeneca, both of which subsequently admitted difficulties in clinical trials. Not until November – when journalists started asking pointed questions – did the EU strike its first deal for a batch of the BioNTech vaccine. This was followed in December and early January by further purchases, including from Moderna.

Israel, Canada and the US placed orders with multiple producers early and for high numbers of batches - the EU started late and didn't order in advance enough batches.

 

[Merowig]

So Israel did a deal with Pfizer for more vaccines in order to get detailed analysis on the vaccines effects.......is that "unscheduled deliveries "?

Speeding up deliveries - moving delivery dates forward means that the new earlier delivery date was not previously scheduled.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

Speeding up deliveries - moving delivery dates forward means that the new earlier delivery date was not previously scheduled.

They did a deal that Israel bought more vaccines in order for Pfizer to get data on the effectiveness of the vaccines.
Its a perfectly legitimate thing to do, and a very clever one.
Bourla identified that the Israeli health systems were the perfect place to distribute a lot of vaccines and get real data from the population.
There was nothing clandestine in doing this.

 

[Sunny]

It's hardly outrageous to suggest that the EU have made a complete balls of this so far. The EU reached an agreement with AstraZeneca with a significant upfront payment to help ramp up production for when the vaccine was approved. Despite this large upfront payment, they seem to have been completely blindsided by production problems so it seems like the EU did what the EU do best. They wrote a large cheque without any follow up to ensure that the money was spent as it was meant to be. People can only go on what they are hearing. There is silence from AstraZeneca and outrage from the EU including the usually mild tempered Germans. It is pretty clear that the company have not produced as much as they thought they would (which asks the question why is this suddenly announced as should have been blatantly clear to all parties before now) or they have sold supplies that were meant for the EU to another party. (Guess who)

Maybe there are really complicated reasons behind this but they aren't exactly issuing strong statements going beyond production problems in a EU manufacturing site. Meanwhile the EU are talking about export controls for all vaccines produced in the EU. To go down that road or even suggest it, it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that the EU got screwed or at the least completely took their eye off the ball.

And this is only one vaccine. The EU hardly covered themselves in glory with the Pfizer one either......

 

[Leo]

It is pretty clear that the company have not produced as much as they thought they would (which asks the question why is this suddenly announced as should have been blatantly clear to all parties before now) or they have sold supplies that were meant for the EU to another party. (Guess who)

The fact that the EU are demanding detailed information on production and exports suggest they believe they reneged on the terms of the deal to supply other parties. Companies of AZ's scale do run into production issues from time to time, but so far they have been unable to explain what these issues are in direct meetings with the EU. That suggests they're hiding something or are incompetent...

 

[Merowig]

They did a deal that Israel bought more vaccines in order for Pfizer to get data on the effectiveness of the vaccines.
Its a perfectly legitimate thing to do, and a very clever one.
Bourla identified that the Israeli health systems were the perfect place to distribute a lot of vaccines and get real data from the population.
There was nothing clandestine in doing this.

The articles clearly state speedup deliveries for Israel in exchange of Data. Other countries obviously face a delay then.
Never claimed it is not legitimate - it is in my opinion every countries duty to look after its citizens first.
And yes Israel manages the whole vaccination program - from procurement to administration admirably.

 

[Purple]

I can see the European medicines agency becoming obsolete after this as countries decide to go it alone or form their own alliances with like minded countries.

That's not going to happen. We, for example, would not have the expertise or budget to do what they do. The EU may have dropped the ball, we don't have enough information to say that for sure at the moment, but the EMA are not the reason for this current problem.

 

[Merowig]

I agree EMA won't become obsolete - I do not see it happening at all - but some countries might follow Germany/Cyprus and trying to do their own side deals in order to source more vaccines faster.

 

[joe sod]

They did a deal that Israel bought more vaccines in order for Pfizer to get data on the effectiveness of the vaccines.
Its a perfectly legitimate thing to do, and a very clever one.
Bourla identified that the Israeli health systems were the perfect place to distribute a lot of vaccines and get real data from the population.
There was nothing clandestine in doing this.

Doesn't that highlight the difficulty and shortcomings of the EU in doing deals like this in an emergency situation. Israel was able to do a deal like this while taking some risk admittedly but clearly decided that it was worth doing. Even if the EU tried to act quickly it would get bogged down in consent and GDPR stuff. The EU is not agile and quick and countries resort to their own means when hit with an emergency as is happening again. The same thing happened during the migration crisis in 2015 it was every country for themselves and the EU protocols were abandoned even by Germany.

 

[Merowig]

To be fair without the EU deal the vaccine would had been more expensive for the EU member countries - also very doubtful Ireland would have managed it in an agile way like Israel did if it was on its own.

 

[Purple]

Irish Times article on Astra Zeneca response.