Decayed Fencing between neighbour but refusal to replace

[Mothergoose]

I have a holiday home that I will retire to in about 3 years time. The neighbours, both professionals, have always been extremely difficult. They let their children run into my garden, trample on my plants, break windows, not once, but several times. I asked them numerous times to get their children to stop, but they didn't.

When I started spending more time there, they seemed to get annoyed. I think they never thought I would actually be moving there and that they would have the run of both my back and front garden for the longer term. The male of the couple became threatening and abusive - accosting me when I was going to the bin at the end of the drive - saying no one liked me and they wanted me out of the estate. I don't know anyone at all in the estate, bar them as they are attached to my house. I had to get a solicitor involved, who thought it was bizarre for a member of the professions to behave like this - the solicitor thought my neighbour - the male of the couple was 'unhinged.' Eventually I had to get CCTV in for them to stop. I put up hedging in my front garden.

Now the fence in the rear of the house is decaying - the wooden posts have rotted in the concrete posts that they were in. As I know the neighbours are very tight with money, I offered, through the guy who is doing the fencing to pay for the entire fence - 3.2k. He showed them the photos etc. They refused, saying they had supported the fence from their side, that they wouldn't pay for it, and even if I paid for it they didn't want it. Unfortunately, the posts can't be similarly supported on my side. I don't want the fence to blow down this winter, and feel nervous that they could start coming into my garden again, and that if one of their children slipped in my garden they could try a case. The guy who was doing the fencing said that I could put in a new fence, but would lose 8 inches of my garden - I don't mind doing this, but he then made the point that they could remove the old fence and say the new line of the garden was at my new fence - so there would be a new demarcation line on the map for my property which wouldn't be accurate.

Just wondering what the law is in relation to fencing. They are not going to see reason. I don't want to feel nervous in my garden, or worry about what they might do when I am not there. Do I get a solicitor involved and take it to Court requesting that I be permitted to change the fence - with me paying for it - along the party line - replacing it exactly - for security and privacy purposes.

Would really welcome any ideas on this.

 

[Early Riser]

I can't answer your question but boundary issues and disputes are quite common. If you have an IT subscription some of these queries to their Property Section may be of relevance:

A man in the estate next to us has smashed our boundary wall and is being abusive

Property Clinic: Consult with your local council’s planning department and the gardaí in the first instance

www.irishtimes.com

How to avoid fractious, costly boundary disputes with your neighbour

A new, proactive approach to disagreements over building work is long overdue

www.irishtimes.com

My neighbour has moved a boundary to make room for his extension

Property Clinic: I believe that, by making changes to a garage, the neighbour has encroached on my property

www.irishtimes.com

Our neighbour’s hedge doesn’t match the boundary shown on the deed map

Property Clinic: Corner houses without boundary walls are often contentious

www.irishtimes.com

My neighbour cut part of my boundary wall without asking. What can I do?

Property Clinic: Proving ownership is the first step in resolving a boundary dispute

www.irishtimes.com

My neighbour’s building overhangs our boundary wall

Property Clinic: I am a single parent and feel I am just being intimidated by my neighbours

www.irishtimes.com

Our neighbour says he has permission to build on our boundary wall. Can he?

He has also cut some of my patio to connect to my sewer pipe, without permission

www.irishtimes.com

Our new neighbours have cut down the trees along our boundary. What can we do?

Property Clinic: A tree must be replaced if its removal is in breach of a planning condition

www.irishtimes.com

My deed boundaries are different from the actual ones, how can I resolve this?

Property Clinic: My land’s boundaries are eight metres shorter than those on the map

www.irishtimes.com

Can our neighbour use the boundary wall as part of his extension?

Property Clinic: We are concerned this may cause issues if we ever want to sell our house

www.irishtimes.com

Our neighbours refuse to recognise our land boundary, what can we do?

Property Clinic: Your neighbours have consulted a solicitor, it’s time you did too

www.irishtimes.com

 

[DannyBoyD]

Put in a new fence set into your side (or better still build a block wall). Let the other fence rot away to its hearts content.

 

[Bronte]

I suppose your fence guy might be referring to adverse possession.

8 inches for peace seems reasonable, for dealing with unreasonable people. I'd say a block wall as suggested is your best bet.

 

[PaddyBloggit]

would lose 8 inches of my garden

I'd put up my own fence, and be happy with losing 8" for the sake of my privacy/mentality etc. I'd be putting up concrete posts or suchlike... something long lasting.

 

[Mothergoose]

Thanks all for your replies. I would happily put up a block wall - but just concerned that when I come to sell the house the boundary of the garden - with about 8 inches lost - won't be the same as the map, and that there may be then difficulty in selling, or that the difficult next door neighbours might tear down the fence and put their boundary against my wall/fence. Maybe I'm overthinking it - I don't mind losing 8 inches of my garden for peace - it's these other issues that are concerning. Would a solicitor be helpful for direction on this or should I get geomatic surveyor to map the garden.

 

[DeeKie]

Would you go with hedging?

 

[Mothergoose]

HI! DeeKie - the ground is almost pure rock - built into the side of a hill - so hedging wouldn't work, but I did put hedging in the front garden, which is flat and the soil there is much better.

 

[Early Riser]

I would make sure that I had good pictures of the current boundary fence - the state of it and the exact location.
I would write to the neighbours (politely) setting out the concerns about the fence and the proposals already discussed to replace it. I would reiterate that I would like to jointly agree the design and commissioning of the new fence but also offer to fund it in full (having agreed the design) if the neighbours are not interested.
Assuming a lack of response (or positive response) I would consult a good solicitor. He/she should be able to advise whether a surveyor to comfirm the boundaries is necessary, and outline the pros and cons on options to proceed.

 

[fayf]

Personally, i wouldn’t get solicitors involved, as they won’t listen to anyone, and formalising it with letters, is highly unlikely to improve the situation, which is the objective.

Agree on detailed photos, as a record.

These are a very tricky situation, and while i never had a situation like yours, i did have similar issues with a rotting wooden fence. It was about 17 years old, when a storm, damaged a main post so it started to lean into our side, and was beginning to get worse over time. It was in really bad shape, and looked awful, so a total replacement or a block wall were the only options. i mentioned it to the neighbours about a block wall replacement, and we get on well with them, but they were not interested, we went back and forth over it for about 2 years, and eventually, we just said we would pay for it in full. Tbf they were genuinely tight on money, which maybe the case here.

We replaced with a block the wall, about 3.5 k, and later, on about a year later, they voluntarily, gave us about a grand, as a contribution, we never asked for any contribution, we just wanted it fixed. Very happy we got it done. A block wall will mean, its done, and done forever, anything less than that, could mean maintenance, down the line.

I’d just tell them, and tell them when both of the couple are together, as nice as you possibly can, that you are paying for a block wall, and if they don’t agree, tell them, you are doing it anyway on your side, and they can watch their side rot away. This approach, may nudge them into having it on the existing boundary line, if it doesent, then they can’t stop you doing it, Once its up, things “may” improve, or at least not get worse.

Life is way to short for these lingering, and mentally sapping issues. Try and deal with it as quickly as you can, and move on. Clearly some “lip biting” required here, if you plan on staying there.

But, having said all that, there seems to be some nastiness going on here, which replacing the wall, may not change. If you plan on staying there, I would certainly make it your business, and go out of your way, to get to know some other neighbours in the estate, you may find you are not the only one who thinks your neighbours are “unhinged”. It will visibly demonstrate you are going nowhere, and “might” mean the nastiness subsides, somewhat, this will take time.

This situation is not for everyone, buts what i would do personally, there is always the nuclear option, is to not build a wall and sellup.

These situations are not easily fixed, they are difficult and long lasting, and not for the faint hearted, so its a very personal choice.

 

[Early Riser]

i wouldn’t get solicitors involved, as they won’t listen to anyone, and

The suggestion for the solicitor is not in relation to getting on to the neighbours, or to litigating, but on how to proceed with the new fence/wall while, as far as possible, maintaining legal boundaries and avoiding further issues, eg, in relation to possible sale of the property down the road.

 

[Sue Ellen]

jointly agree the design and commissioning of the new fence but also offer to fund it in full (having agreed the design)

By the sounds of things considering their carry-on to-date I certainly would not give them free rein to lay down the law about the wall especially when it would be at my expense.

 

[DannyBoyD]

In my view you are overthinking.

Build the wall your side & dont bother with anything else.

 

[E30chick]

I would build the tallest concrete wall that I could on my side, maintenance free.

 

[DirectDevil]

What is unclear to me is the legal status of the fence. IMHO this is the basic issue to be resolved.
1. Is it a boundary fence ?
2. Is it a party fence ?

If it is a boundary fence it is 100% owned by whoever actually owns it.
If OP is the owner they do not need the other side's agreement to repair or replace.
If it is a boundary fence the owner is probably obliged to maintain it i.e. not let it become a hazard.
If the neighbour is the owner then OP has no right to replace or repair as it is not their [OP's] property.

If it is a party fence both parties must agree on any replacement or repairs being executed.
Bullying Bolsheviks like the neighbour here are the very ones who will not co-operate and be the first ones to sue if one of their children is injured by a defect in the fence !

How do you determine the legal personality of the fence ?

1. Who erected the fence and has that same party maintained it ?
2. Title deeds seem to be of little help in boundary disputes.
3. The PRAI would, AFAIK, have no function in determining a boundary dispute.
4. A very long shot, but do the title documents contain any boundary wall/fence agreements between the parties or their predecessors in title ?
5. OP was the second or later owner so can they contact the previous vendor(s) for information or evidence about the fence history ?

Mutual agreement is the favoured option but OP would have more luck negotiating with North Korea.
That being the case litigation or arbitration may be required to resolve the issue and those are processes of great uncertainty and expense.

I would instruct my solicitor to probe the issues mentioned above. They will know what to look for with a view to bringing clarity to the issue and thereafter how best to proceed.

P.S. Building a new structure inside my boundary. Two thoughts ;

1. That would facilitate a de facto land grab / land loss.
2. If the fence is actually the legal property of the OP simple abandonment behind a wall may not extinguish an obligation to maintain.

 

[Early Riser]

As I know the neighbours are very tight with money, I offered, through the guy who is doing the fencing to pay for the entire fence - 3.2k. He showed them the photos etc. They refused, saying they had supported the fence from their side, that they wouldn't pay for it, and even if I paid for it they didn't want it.

By the sounds of things considering their carry-on to-date I certainly would not give them free rein to lay down the law about the wall especially when it would be at my expense.

A mutually agreed wall is probably the very best outcome that could be achieved in this situation. Mothergoose has already offered to pay for it. It is very unlikely the neighbours will agree to this, given their history.
However, I think it would be useful for Mothergoose to establish a papertrail of the efforts she has gone to resolve the situation in an amicable manner prior to embarking on any other course of action, which may well result in some form adverse reaction from the other side.
Given that, I think that @DirectDevil's advice on establishing the exact status of the fence in the first instance, and before anything else, is a good one.

 

[Leo]

If it is a party fence both parties must agree on any replacement or repairs being executed.

Good post DirectDevil.

Is it advisable to seek a works order as outlined https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/neighbour-disputes/boundary-disputes/ (here) to compel the other party facilitate maintenance or repair of a party structure.

 

[Mothergoose]

Thanks DiectDevil and Early Riser for filurther replies. I think I am going to have my solicitor correspond with them. The nastiness and harassment only stopped the last time when my solicitor wrote to them and reminded them if they didn't stop their carry on, we would be taking them to Court and warning them that they might not like the adverse publicity. Ideally a wall would be great buy Ith8nk the foundations in my back garden might be difficult to dig for the wall as tge houses are built into a hill there is just rock underneath. The houses were built by McInerney 25 years ago. The fences in the back gardens were put in by the McInerney. I am not sure whether that makes the fence a boundary or party structure.

 

[Clamball]

I would get an engineer in to determine the boundary precisely and draw up a boundary map. The fence is probably your boundary currently.

Then build your brick wall at your side of the fence and get on with your life.

When it comes to selling your engineer report will be useful to determine the exact location of the back garden division.

 

[Leo]

When it comes to selling your engineer report will be useful to determine the exact location of the back garden division.

The only potential downside there is that a prospective purchaser will be alerted to a problem next door.