Capitalism Unleashed in Ireland

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Fitzcarraldo

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We've seen little comment on these hallowed boards about the GAMA scandal. The dominance of the cheerleaders of the capitalist system is almost complete here now. The silence is deafening.

Well folks, what do you have to say now? I can remember when the Turks were held upon these boards as shining examples of how foreign (non-unionised) workers could work their guts out.
And how!

I guess the truth hurts, huh guys?
 
Fitzcarraldo said:
We've seen little comment on these hallowed boards about the GAMA scandal.

Discussions don't start themselves.

The dominance of the cheerleaders of the capitalist system is almost complete here now. The silence is deafening.

How can there be domination by capitalist cheerleaders and silence at the same time?

Well folks, what do you have to say now?

For what it's worth, based on what I know so far about this matter, I personally consider the Gama affair a disgrace. The alleged behaviour of the company in underpaying workers and transferring money to accounts seemingly not accessible to them is intolerable. The alleged behaviour of the DETE in issuing work permits to individuals employed by the company after a moratorium on construction industry work visas was instituted also seems suspect and is something that has not received too much attention to date for some reason.

I can remember when the Turks were held upon these boards as shining examples of how foreign (non-unionised) workers could work their guts out.

I don't recall that discussion myself. If you have a link handy feel free to post it.

I guess the truth hurts, huh guys?

Hurts who?
 
Fair play to Joe Higgins for his tenacious digging on this issue to uncover the Dutch bank accounts.
 
"Well folks, what do you have to say now? I can remember when the Turks were held upon these boards as shining examples of how foreign (non-unionised) workers could work their guts out." In my experience foreign non-unionised workers do work very hard as I am sure do unionised foreign workers. The issue here is not that the laws were not in place to counter the behaviour that is alleged of Gamma construction; the issue is that there was a complete failure by both government and labour inspectors to apply those laws.
I have to agree that a large degree of credit is due to Joe Higgins. Without him I would guess that this would still be going on.
"The dominance of the cheerleaders of the capitalist system is almost complete here now." As someone who is a believer in a free market that is not bigger than government I would consider AAM to be populated by more people to the left of centre than the right.

I do not get what you are trying to say Fitzcarraldo. I don't see how this affair undermines all right wing philosophy in the same way that all unions can't be tarred with the same brush as the militant fringes.
Any system where people can get very rich without being accountable to government or the law is flawed and must be challenged.
 
don't see how this affair undermines all right wing philosophy in the same way that all unions can't be tarred with the same brush as the militant fringes.

More fundamentally I don't see how/why the original poster seems to assume/imply that most or all AAM posters are of a like mind on issues of economics/politics (e.g. possibly right wing free market capitalists) when this is patently not the case.
 
ClubMan said:
I don't see how/why the original poster seems to assume/imply that most or all AAM posters are of a like mind on issues of economics/politics (e.g. possibly right wing free market capitalists) when this is patently not the case.
You are right there Clubman, and I have the mental scars to prove it!
 
Not from you Clubman; you are nothing but the model Gentleman on this site.
 
Judging the semantics used by "Fitzcaraldo" he has delivered other contradicting articles here before.I am neither a hacker nor am I reading in the tea leafes.But it sounds somehow like "true blue" and ohouhua (to boring to remember the name).Some like to stir the empty pot.
 
No discussion here Clubman because there is no interest in discussing anything which contradicts perceived wisdom - that unions are EVIL.
This is a uniformly right-wing BB, in spite of Purples pathetic protestations.

The discussion about Turkish workers (the one you 'don't recall' -surprise-surprise) was held on the old ezboard-BB. I guess my memory is just better than yours in such matters. If you want chapter and verse you'd better find it yourself, its there.

Its all very well to say you consider what happened to the GAMA workers a disgrace, but the common theme on this right wing BB is that unions are an abomination - when any honest person knows that they are NECESSARY to prevent greedy Irish employers from exploiting their employees, and this is a perfect example of how employers (not just Irish ones either) will do exactly that, when given free reign.

Perhaps YOU can provide ME with links to examples of how you've historically advocated the labour movement?

I think not.
Crocodile tears Clubman, Crocodile Tears.

Dear heinbloed, I just joined this website, but I've been a long time observer. Try to address the message, not the messenger.
 
Fitzcarraldo said:
No discussion here Clubman because there is no interest in discussing anything which contradicts perceived wisdom - that unions are EVIL.

Perceived wisdom where? Here on AAM specifically or in the wider/real world in general? If lack of discussion is upsetting you then feel free to initiate some.

This is a uniformly right-wing BB, in spite of Purples pathetic protestations.

Any chance you could provide some evidence (e.g. links to specific threads or posts) to support this assertion? How, precisely, is this board "uniformly right-wing"?

The discussion about Turkish workers (the one you 'don't recall' -surprise-surprise) was held on the old ezboard-BB. I guess my memory is just better than yours in such matters. If you want chapter and verse you'd better find it yourself, its there.

Why not root it out yourself if this matter exercises you so much?

Its all very well to say you consider what happened to the GAMA workers a disgrace, but the common theme on this right wing BB is that unions are an abomination - when any honest person knows that they are NECESSARY to prevent greedy Irish employers from exploiting their employees, and this is a perfect example of how employers (not just Irish ones either) will do exactly that, when given free reign.

Again I'd challenge you to provide evidence to back up your assertions/accusations. In particular I'd like to know where anybody in particular claimed or insinuated that unions are an abomination.

But whatever about that, if unions are so NECESSARY then why did it take the single handed efforts of an individual TD (Joe Higgins - somebody for whom I have great admiration after this incident but for whom I would never vote because I disagree with so many of his policies and ideologies) to highlight the matter, with SIPTU (represented by somebody who I know personally as it happens) eventually being forced (reluctantly it seemed) to get involved, and why did the various unions involved not show more solidarity with the Turkish workers by supporting their plight? Was there any withdrawal of labour by colleagues and associated unions in support of the Turkish workers?

Perhaps YOU can provide ME with links to examples of how you've historically advocated the labour movement?

Where did I ever claim to have "advocated the labour movement", whatever that means? I have never been a member of a union (USI and my local Credit Union excepted) and generally have no time for them based on my own limited personal experience (having inquired about an employee rights issue on behalf of colleagues in the context of a takeover situation years ago when I was given short shrift by the union in question) as well as that of my father's (when his construction industry union did nothing about a legitimate complaint that he and his colleagues had and seemed more interested in playing left wing factional political games rather than representing their constituency properly). But of course these are just my personal opinions and not necessarily representative of the majority of AAM contributors.

I think not.
Crocodile tears Clubman, Crocodile Tears.

What tears?

Maybe you can answer a couple of straight questions for me? What are your views on free market capitalism and what do you make of the unions' collaboration with same (e.g. national wage agreements, social partnership etc.)?

I suppose that I really should resist the temptation to respond to trolls... :rolleyes:
 
ClubMan said:
Any chance you could provide some evidence (e.g. links to specific threads or posts) to support this assertion? How, precisely, is this board "uniformly right-wing"?
It just is. Anyone expressing a pro-union opinion gets jumped on. Any time there is a strike or industrial disruption, or bad results from a company - its always the unions at fault.

Why not root it out yourself if this matter exercises you so much?
Root what out? How?

Again I'd challenge you to provide evidence to back up your assertions/accusations. In particular I'd like to know where anybody in particular claimed or insinuated that unions are an abomination.
I won't waste my time. You know well how to find the facts yourself. There are numerous examples.

But whatever about that, if unions are so NECESSARY then why did it take the single handed efforts of an individual TD (Joe Higgins - somebody for whom I have great admiration after this incident but for whom I would never vote because I disagree with so many of his policies and ideologies) to highlight the matter, with SIPTU (represented by somebody who I know personally as it happens) eventually being forced (reluctantly it seemed) to get involved, and why did the various unions involved not show more solidarity with the Turkish workers by supporting their plight? Was there any withdrawal of labour by colleagues and associated unions in support of the Turkish workers?
Were the Turks members of SIPTU? Were there any Irish workers on the job who were?

Where did I ever claim to have "advocated the labour movement", whatever that means?
Exactly my point. You never have! In fact you've been reliably anti-union and you've also now explained your personal prejudice. Whatever your experience, others have found them useful and necessary. Those GAMA workers would have been better off in one.

What tears?
The great big crocodile ones you shedv about 'the poor GAMA workers plight....boo hoo.

Maybe you can answer a couple of straight questions for me? What are your views on free market capitalism and what do you make of the unions' collaboration with same (e.g. national wage agreements, social partnership etc.)?
You see unions (and their members) are not all anti christs as you choose to see them. NWAs etc are fine by me and most workers. As to Capitalism as a system, I would abolish it in favour of a liberal socialist system. Capitalism is a curse on society, unless it is strictly reigned in and controlled.

I suppose that I really should resist the temptation to respond to trolls.
For info, I feel exactly the same about you.
 
Fitzcarraldo said:
It just is.

Well, nobody can argue with such a cogent and comprehensive argument! :rolleyes:

Root what out? How?

Root out the alleged topic to which you referred earlier. How? Using the search feature or by browsing the site.

I won't waste my time. You know well how to find the facts yourself. There are numerous examples.

Why not quote them so? Or is it a case of not letting the lack of evidence get in the way of a good accusation.

Were the Turks members of SIPTU? Were there any Irish workers on the job who were?

I don't know. But SIPTU did eventually get involved for some reason and if their members and the members of other construction unions had shown any solidarity with the plight of the Turkish workers I'm sure that they could have done something practical to help up to and including a withdrawal of their labour services.

Exactly my point. You never have! In fact you've been reliably anti-union and you've also now explained your personal prejudice.

Please quote examples, other than the above, of any anti union sentiment on my part if you can.

The great big crocodile ones you shedv about 'the poor GAMA workers plight....boo hoo.

I shed no tears about them. I just agreed that the treatment of them by their employer was a disgrace.

You see unions (and their members) are not all anti christs as you choose to see them.

Sorry to keep repeating myself but where did I allude to unions as "all anti Christs"?

NWAs etc are fine by me and most workers. As to Capitalism as a system, I would abolish it in favour of a liberal socialist system. Capitalism is a curse on society, unless it is strictly reigned in and controlled

Fair enough. Good luck with pushing your agenda through democratic means. Can't see it happening any time soon though to be honest. Especially as long as the unions collaborate with the capitalist system by involving themselves in social partnership and national wage agreements etc.

For info, I feel exactly the same about you.

Fair enough again. I won't lose any sleep over it.
 
This is a uniformly right-wing BB, in spite of Purples pathetic protestations. Ah now you've hurt my feelings. I thought you wanted us all to live in a workers papradise, calling people names is hardly conducive to the formation of a smilie happy utopia. It's only because most of live in the real world that people like you can live in your one. Don't get me wrong, I'm not resentful. Like most people who post on AAM I believe in a free market economy where a proportion of income is taken and redistributed for the common good. You can think of it as a democratic system that has a relativally free market economic model ans a socially inclusive social model. The only argument that most people have is the extent to which income and/or wealth can and should be redistributed.
Quote:
In fact you've been reliably anti-union
I wouldn't reguard Clubman as anti union at all. If you'd said that about me there would be more than a grain of truth to it. Not because of their principles mors because of their behaviour.
The only upside of this is seeing RainyDay exposed for the rightwing biggott that he is :confused:
 
The 'benefits' of the capitalist system in Ireland and abroad:

Widespread political corruption
Perversion of the planning process
Inflation of land values
Massive profiteering by developers
Young people unable to afford homes
A malfunctioning Health Service
The 'ME' society
Rising violent crime
Exploitation of foreign workers
Exploitation of local workers
Manufacturing redundancies
Globalisation
Pension funds embezzlement
FSP guarentee schemes shutting down
Wars - now, and in the future.

You wish me luck in changing the system Clubman? Don't worry, the system WILL change - it may take time, as it did for Communism, but I truly believe that in the long run we'll see another upheaval that will bury capitalism in the very same way. When China and India are fully on stream as competing economies, and jobs here are dissapearing because their workers are on 50 cents an hour - the economies of Europe and the US will stagnate and reverse. The truth will then hit home, and hit hard.

Capitalism will eventually eat itself.
 
Why don't you relocate to a workers paradise like Cuba or China where none of the above have ever applied? There are clearly too many things 'wrong' with this country for someone like you to ever feel content.

I note that all Mr. Fitzcarraldo's posts are in this thread in the LoS forum- I was under the impression that unless you constructively contribute to the the financial/consumer issues section, you would not be allowed to post in this section?
 
This is the most convincing school debate I've seen here for quite some time. Bad capitalism! Bad!!!!

Down with that sort of thing!
 
See what I mean? Uniformly right wing.

QED. Thank you.
 
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