Can a former landlord claim jobseekers' benefit?

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NoRegretsCoyote

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Suppose for example your sole source of income is rental income and you pay income tax and Class S PRSI on it for several years. Suppose you sell your property or move back into it leaving you with no other income and start to look for work.

Can you claim jobseekers benefit on the basis of your Class S PRSI record? Reading the operational guidelines I can't see any reason why you couldn't, but it would seem a bit anomalous.
 
ClubMan said:
See here:

Jobseeker's Benefit (Self-Employed)

Jobseeker’s Benefit (Self-Employed) is a payment to support people who lose their self-employment.
www.citizensinformation.ie www.citizensinformation.ie
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Thanks, it says you have to:

  • Be aged between 18 and 66
  • No longer be self-employed. You must have lost your self-employment involuntarily and not because of a temporary shutdown or seasonal closure.
  • Be unemployed (you can work as an employee for up to 3 days each week)
  • Be capable of work
  • Be available for and genuinely seeking full-time work
  • Have enough social insurance (PRSI) contributions
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I think the key criterion is above in bold. If you've sold your house and lost your only income would that qualify as losing self-employment involuntarily?

It wouldn't fit a common-sense definition of loss of self-employment. At the same time rental profits are subject to Class S PRSI so presumably it should confer a benefit if the rental profits are gone.
 
It's probably like the PAYE employee condition for qualifying for JB where they say that voluntarily leaving employment may disqualify you for a period of time but they don't always push this?
 
ClubMan said:
It's probably like the PAYE employee condition for qualifying for JB where they say that voluntarily leaving employment may disqualify you for a period of time but they don't always push this?
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That's probably a good analogy. AFAIK they never push this condition as it's hard to disprove that an employee didn't leave voluntarily.

I guess it would be the same here in that it would be hard to disprove that the sale of the house wasn't forced.
 
I don't think that the sale of an investment property would have to be "forced" for the landlord to be legitimately unemployed and (subject to the other normal qualifying conditions) be able to apply for JB self-employed? Selling up and getting out of the business is a legitimate exit to unemployment a far as I can see.
 
ClubMan said:
Selling up and getting out of the business is a legitimate exit to unemployment a far as I can see.
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I agree. It wouldn't be "involuntary" though.

But like with PAYE I think it's even harder for DSP to disprove that self-employment hasn't dried up. If a sole trader plumber comes and tells DSP the phone hasn't rung for six weeks and they have no work I don't see how this could ever be challenged. So by analogy they would be unlikely to challenge an exiting landlord either.
 
You should check the "Operational Guidelines for Jobseekers Benefit self employed."

They state as below.


To qualify for Jobseeker’s Benefit (Self-Employed) a person must:

no longer be engaged in self-employment, that is, completely ceased trading as a self-employed person. A self-employed person who is between work contracts is still considered to be engaged in self-employment.

prove unemployment in the prescribed manner

satisfy the contribution conditions

be capable of work

be genuinely seeking work

be available for full-time work

be under pension age


There are lots of anomalies in the Jobseekers Benefit system.
Anybody in the situation you describe should apply for Jobseekers Benefit.
 
bstop said:
no longer be engaged in self-employment, that is, completely ceased trading as a self-employed person. A self-employed person who is between work contracts is still considered to be engaged in self-employment.
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Thanks I had a look at these.

I don't know whether a landlord is really "trading" but I guess if the house is sold and there is no longer any rental income then the activity has "ceased".
 
The guidelines state

"Unearned Income from Rental Income, Investment and so on, is considered to be insurable self-employment."

Ceasing rental should therefore be ceasing employment.

The system is full of anomalies. You can be unemployed as a paye worker and have self employment and still qualify for Jobseekers Benefit (paye).There are various ways of having subsidiary paye employment and still qualifing for Jobseekers Benefit.

If you have no employment you should qualify.

Definitely apply if you find yourself in that situation.
 
If you meet the qualifications criteria for Jobseekers Benefit (paye) i.e. loss of paye employment and have the necessary Prsi contributions you can be in self employment and receive the benefits.

Jobseekers Benefit self employment and Jobseekers Benefit (paye) exist as two separate Prsi systems. If you are in both systems you can become unemployed in one system and qualify for Jobseekers Benefit while remaining in employment in the other system.

There are complex rules for subsidiary employment.
You might have to have been in self employment for a period of 117 weeks before the loss of the paye employment and both employments might have to have run concurrently for at least 26 weeks.
 
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Another question. The rate of JSB is calculated by reference to reckonable income of the self-employed individual in the relevant tax year, two tax years behind. So if claiming for 2023 the relevant year is 2021. The higher your income in the relevant year the more the formerly self-employed individual can claim up to a maximum of €220 a week.

The operational guidelines say:

Reckonable income is effectively the net profit declared by self-assessed individuals
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I'm not sure how this should reconcile with rental income categories as recorded on Revenue's Form 11.

For me it would make most sense to use "amount of chargeable profit after expenses but before Capital Allowances and losses forward". This is basically gross rental income less interest, repairs and other allowable expenditure but it would exclude capital allowances.

Does this make sense?
 
I would imagine that the income used to determine the amount of Jobseekers Benefit allowed would be the total amount that S class Prsi was paid on for the governing year.
 
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