Buying a site - verifying that Land Registry Map matches actual boundaries?

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abc1234

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Looking for some advice on validating site boundaries.

We are currently in the process of buying a site (Dublin area). Land is within the Land Registry, and the area now has digital mapping. We have not yet received the official digital map (folio?) that will be required for Land Registry, but have a concern that it will not exactly match the existing boundaries (fences).

Basically we measured ourselves (walking using measuring tape!) to verify the (hand-drawn) map in the sales brochure etc, and found that there's about 1 metre in the difference. I.e. on one side of the site the legal boundary may be approx 1 metre short of the physical fencing.

So the next steps are
(a) to get the "official" map and check it vs the situation on the ground. Who do we get to do this? A surveyor/ engineer?
(b) What to do if our suspicions are confirmed? Clearly we go back to the vendors and say we want our extra metre.... The fence in place has been there a long long time, so they probably do own it by "adverse posession". Is this difficult to prove? How long might it take to get the boundary map amended?

In other words, will it be a complete nightmare if the boundaries are wrong, or can it be relatively easily fixed?

any advice welcome - thanks in advance.
 
Get an engineer.

If fences there for more than 12 years those may be the actual boundaries.
 
nuac - could you enlighten me about the 12 year thing? We're involved in a problem with a boundary as well. Where could I look to find more information?
Thanks in advance
 
nuac said:
Get an engineer.

If fences there for more than 12 years those may be the actual boundaries.
Click to expand...

this may sound like a stupid question - but what kind of engineer, and how do I find one?

I've had an architect do a survey, but am not keen to use him again as he missed this boundary issue (found it myself with my measuring tape - zero qualifications required!).

And how do I find a good engineer? what exact equipment is needed to verify co-ordinates from a land registry (OSI) map?

thanks
 
1234 said:
Can I asked what starting point you used to measure the distance to your fence?

Did you measure from the corner of your house or the opposite boundary?

If you used the opposite boundary, is this boundary a hedge, fence or wall?

If this boundary is a hedge, did you start from your side of the hedge or the centre of the hedge?

When you measured the distance on your OSI map, did you measure from the centre or the inner edge of the boundary line?
Click to expand...

Walked the boundary with a measuring tape (a bit crude I know). Boundary on all sides is chicken-wire fence, so no real ambiguity about inside/outside measurements I think? I don't have an "official" OSI map yet, as the sales materials only included a hand-drawn one, but the length of the boundary on that seems a bit short of the actual boundary on the ground - hence the concern. Looking at OSI website map it looks like this might be the case - the adjoining property looks a bit wider than it does on the ground (again - unscientific - just going on what it looks like etc!).

So the fear is that the legal boundary does not correspond with the actual one...
 
Thanks for the advice - I will definitely get the map checked and make sure it is right before I sign contracts - do not want to have to go through what you describe 2 years on!

It may only be a metre, but it is a metre strip down one whole side of the site - so worth bothering with I think, as it is not a huge site to begin with.
 
abc1234 said:
Looking for some advice on validating site boundaries.

We are currently in the process of buying a site (Dublin area). Land is within the Land Registry, and the area now has digital mapping. We have not yet received the official digital map (folio?) that will be required for Land Registry, but have a concern that it will not exactly match the existing boundaries (fences).

Basically we measured ourselves (walking using measuring tape!) to verify the (hand-drawn) map in the sales brochure etc, and found that there's about 1 metre in the difference. I.e. on one side of the site the legal boundary may be approx 1 metre short of the physical fencing.

So the next steps are
(a) to get the "official" map and check it vs the situation on the ground. Who do we get to do this? A surveyor/ engineer?
(b) What to do if our suspicions are confirmed? Clearly we go back to the vendors and say we want our extra metre.... The fence in place has been there a long long time, so they probably do own it by "adverse posession". Is this difficult to prove? How long might it take to get the boundary map amended?

In other words, will it be a complete nightmare if the boundaries are wrong, or can it be relatively easily fixed?

any advice welcome - thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

Well done on finding out about the matter so far but can I urge caution in terms of who you appoint to do survey and and potential follow on "swearing" work.

If you're surveying land you need a chartered surveyor with proper P.I. cover and experience in dealing with legal sites and offering and presenting expert witness testimony in the Hight Court if required.
This is because land deals can go very pear shaped, and only last year I was involved in a case which had two other defendants, one of which was contesting a boundary.
I had to advise on how best to run it and we used a chartered surveyor and my self and the boundary dispute "went away".

Either the surveyor or an architect who has experience of conveyancing or an engineer who is competent to do this may assess the survey against the site plan.
However I would be wary of using anyone without some experience of housing estate type disputes.
If there is one thing wrong there most likely will be others.

  • Some architects only worry about the house proper, as opposed to boundary conditions or its location vis-a-vis other houses - its important that they undertake planning file and building regulation compliace reviews.
  • Some civil engineers only worry about what's under the ground - its important that they can provide structural engineering services and assess the structure too.
  • Chartered surveyors usually survey what's on the ground - you may need historical maps and presentation of all information in a manner suitable for laypersons.
Any of the above matters can include defects which can have a material effect on the value of the property if its to be sold on at some point.

In the above case, in addition to myself and the surveyor - because we were going to Court - we had a civil engineer as well.
This may sound like overkill, but if you want to properly support a senior counsel and yourlegal team you have to bring expertise to the table.
Now I'm not suggesting you need this level of expertise at your present stage, but a competent architect instructing a competent chartered surveyor will prepare the ground if it does escalate into a legal dispute.

ONQ.
 
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Thanks ONQ - how do I find a surveyor/ engineer with the right expertise?
If I get someone from the Society of Chartered Surveyors website which division do I select (Building? Planning & Development?). And a lot of the firms listed sound like they do mostly commercial rather than domestic work (although maybe they are not so fussy these days!)

If you know of anyone who does this kind of work in the south Dublin area who you would reccomend I would appreciate a contact. I don't want to go over the top, but I think paying for the right advice at this stage could save much hastle in the future.

Many thanks
 
Boundaries shown on Land Registry maps are not conclusive. The position on the ground may trump them, or original deed maps may be definitive.

Boundaries can be rectified by application to the land registry. This can be done by consent with the adjoining land owners agreeing, or by application without consent.

The problem may be that all the boundaries of the houses in the row are affected. You could start a whole knock on effect. However, the digital mapping should have corrected any issue like that.

You need a good surveyor. Irish Engineering Surveys in Nutgrove are experienced with Land Reg maps and boundaries. You also need a decent solicitor.

If I were the seller I would offer you a declaration setting out all the facts as to possession (how many years etc) and would tell you to take it or leave it. Most people would take it. A seller should not bother with somebody who wants it all sorted in advance because it will take too long.

Obviously all title documents need to be carefully reviewed.
 
Hey Guys

Engineers specialise in engineering...I suggest you contact The Irish Institution of Surveyors (IIS) in Dame St. See website. They are the proffessional specialists. The problems associated with misregistered property will haunt you if you dont check it out and rectify same.

Midmap
 
If they don't have it sorted out now midmap they never will ... the last post was from September 2010!

Perhaps abc1234 might report back some time.
 
I'm just trying to find the online maps that exist somewhere with land boundaries on them. I've looked at them once before in the past but I had to reinstall my operating system last year so I can't find the site in the history.
And google isn't throwing up what i'm after either :(
Anyone have any pointers :)
Thanks in advance !
 
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