brother proposing buying the family home

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hi, my brother has proposed buying my father's (widower) home, and building a granny flat for my da to live in.

my brothers situation is, he bought a house about a year ago with his gf, house value is around 300k.

my father's house, which has no mortgage is worth about 500k.

there's 5 kids.

he suggested just switching over the mortgage, esentially getting a 500k house for 300k.

as you can imagine, this doesn't sit right with the rest of us.

would anyone be able to suggest a fair proposal that works for everyone?

thanks.
 
What does your father want to do? After all, it is his house and he is free to do what he wants to with it - including selling it and giving all the proceeds to the ISPCA!

Probably more relevant is what the family and your father see as the long term issues - where will father live and who will look after him if/when he needs looking after? How do you secure his long term security- financial and emotional?
Is the brothers suggestion entirely for the benefit of his father? Is he suggesting that your father would sell his house to him and his girlfriend for an undervalue? I'm not sure what you mean when you say "switching a mortgage" I assume you mean brother and girlfriend sell their own and buy the fathers for the sale price they get and then add value by building Granny Flat. They will have Gift Tax and stamp duty issues. Would they get Planning? Would they be able to raise additional finance? Would your father be better off downsizing and taking his equity? Given transaction costs this may not be worthwhile.

mf
 
Well the fairness also depends on the guarantees he gives your father if he becomes infirm and needs care in future , say he gets Alzheimers in 3 years for example .

Have you all discussed that ???
 
You also need to factor in the cost of building the Granny flat as this could be expensive.
 
Some ideas (obviously would need to be clarified with solicitor)

Assuming this is an arrangement your father wants then:

1. House is worth 500k and brother brings 300k then allow him to
purchase 3/5 ths of the house with the remaining 2/5ths owned by
your father. Your father's will can determine what happens to the
2/5ths in the future if the arrangement of ownership is 'tenancy in common'

2. If your father then spends say 150k on the house for extensions/modifications then his ownership % should be increased in the house.

To be fair to your brother, the number of hours he spends caring for your father should be tracked and he should be compensated at a fair rate (say 60% of the cost of a professional carer) through some agreed means.
 
mf1 said:
What does your father want to do? After all, it is his house and he is free to do what he wants to with it - including selling it and giving all the proceeds to the ISPCA!

true, da could give the lot to ispca, but i'm sure you can understand that this wouldn't be the norm.

Probably more relevant is what the family and your father see as the long term issues - where will father live and who will look after him if/when he needs looking after? How do you secure his long term security- financial and emotional?
Is the brothers suggestion entirely for the benefit of his father? Is he suggesting that your father would sell his house to him and his girlfriend for an undervalue? I'm not sure what you mean when you say "switching a mortgage" I assume you mean brother and girlfriend sell their own and buy the fathers for the sale price they get and then add value by building Granny Flat. They will have Gift Tax and stamp duty issues. Would they get Planning? Would they be able to raise additional finance? Would your father be better off downsizing and taking his equity? Given transaction costs this may not be worthwhile.

yes, as far as i know, they are suggesting buying the house for a lot less than it's worth, weather this is 100 or 200k, i'm not sure.

financialy it would be v good for my brother, as far as the tax implications go, i'm sure he would still come out of it v well off.

mf
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Remix said:
Some ideas (obviously would need to be clarified with solicitor)

Assuming this is an arrangement your father wants then:

1. House is worth 500k and brother brings 300k then allow him to
purchase 3/5 ths of the house with the remaining 2/5ths owned by
your father. Your father's will can determine what happens to the
2/5ths in the future if the arrangement of ownership is 'tenancy in common'

2. If your father then spends say 150k on the house for extensions/modifications then his ownership % should be increased in the house.

To be fair to your brother, the number of hours he spends caring for your father should be tracked and he should be compensated at a fair rate (say 60% of the cost of a professional carer) through some agreed means.
Click to expand...

some good suggestions there remix, a % break up sounds the most fair.

i probably didn't explain myself properly, but there's nothing wrong with my father, he's as fit as a fiddle, he's got another 15/20 years left in him at least, so it's not a case of him being looked after, not yet anyway.

just simply, the house is too big for him, plus would be good for him to have the company, i think it's a v good idea, provided it's done fairly, for everyone involved.
 
smree said:
You also need to factor in the cost of building the Granny flat as this could be expensive.
Click to expand...

ye, this is true, i would expect this to belong to my father, and be one of his assets.
 
If there are 5 children then is your brother the only one willing to mind your father?. Is it that the other 4 never thought of this plan first?

Personnally i think the suggestion that your father retain some hold on the house a good one, that way he has something to spend or leave in a will - to control and not be open to being shafted if brothers girlfriend has second thoughts about minding dad down the line.

Having had a granny live (at home, as was her wish) to the grand age of 93 I would say even if your brother "makes" 100k believe me there will be days when he earns it. My aunt used to call us to "grannysit" the 2 nights a week she went to bingo and to go do the shopping etc. The older person is not the only person who can become housebound in this senario.

Now i may be sexist but if it was your sister i would have a different take as the woman in the situation usually becomes the carer and your dad is not her dad if you understand me. I would honestly be just as wary as you.
 
nelly said:
If there are 5 children then is your brother the only one willing to mind your father?. Is it that the other 4 never thought of this plan first?

Personnally i think the suggestion that your father retain some hold on the house a good one, that way he has something to spend or leave in a will - to control and not be open to being shafted if brothers girlfriend has second thoughts about minding dad down the line.

Having had a granny live (at home, as was her wish) to the grand age of 93 I would say even if your brother "makes" 100k believe me there will be days when he earns it. My aunt used to call us to "grannysit" the 2 nights a week she went to bingo and to go do the shopping etc. The older person is not the only person who can become housebound in this senario.

Now i may be sexist but if it was your sister i would have a different take as the woman in the situation usually becomes the carer and your dad is not her dad if you understand me. I would honestly be just as wary as you.
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as i said above, it's not an issue of him being looked after, not at the moment anyway.

but yes in another 10/15 years this could be an issue, but alot can happen in that time.

nothing has been discused about this, i'm just on here to find out practical and fair solutions to this, common, problem.

i think the % share suggestion makes sence.

 
Of course your brother is going to give your dad the proceeds of the sale of his house, ie the 300,000. Your dad could then give the other 4 kids some money or none at all. I recommend that he invest it in another house so that he has some income that he could use to supplement his sons and wife’s income should they need to be at home on a more permanent basis to look after him. A nice bonus there is that there would be something for the rest of the kids to inherit.

You father should retain a right of residency for life in the flat.

My family are facing the exact same situation and the son moving in with my mother will get everything and that is perfectly fine by the rest of us and curiously he’ll get a house worth 500,000 free gratis.

You have no idea what it’s like to mind and look after an elderly person even for a few years until you have been there and done it. It’s both priceless and thankless. I’ve seen my mother take care of her mother and my father’s father and there is no way I would take on the responsibly and work involved. Another poster also noted that it’s your brother’s wife who invariably takes on the workload.

One example of what it’s like. Your brother and his wife help out your father during the week with bits and bobs nothing too much but drop him in his dinner every second day. Your father comes to you on a Sunday for his dinner and always come back saying how lovely it was and how great a cook you are and your wife keeps the house lovely etc etc, but he is so used to the daily dinners and the house tidied that the jobs barely get a mention. My mother used to get totally freaked out by that sort of thing happening.
 
I think if your brother is able to he should try to get a mortgage of say €350k and give each of ye and your father some cash (as your father would probably prefer to see you all enjoy your inheritance whilst he is alive) or if not give it all to your father but get him to put a clause in the contract that if your brother sells the house he has to split whatever profit he has made with the rest of you.

Example (I'm going to use simple figures to make it easy):
The house is valued at 200k but he buys it for 100k therefore getting a 50% reduction. Further down the road he sells this for 300k he would have to give over 50% of this ie 150k to the rest of you to split as this is the % of the profit that he has made and makes it all fair!
 
davidoco said:
Of course your brother is going to give your dad the proceeds of the sale of his house, ie the 300,000. Your dad could then give the other 4 kids some money or none at all. I recommend that he invest it in another house so that he has some income that he could use to supplement his sons and wife’s income should they need to be at home on a more permanent basis to look after him. A nice bonus there is that there would be something for the rest of the kids to inherit.

You father should retain a right of residency for life in the flat.

My family are facing the exact same situation and the son moving in with my mother will get everything and that is perfectly fine by the rest of us and curiously he’ll get a house worth 500,000 free gratis.

You have no idea what it’s like to mind and look after an elderly person even for a few years until you have been there and done it. It’s both priceless and thankless. I’ve seen my mother take care of her mother and my father’s father and there is no way I would take on the responsibly and work involved. Another poster also noted that it’s your brother’s wife who invariably takes on the workload.

One example of what it’s like. Your brother and his wife help out your father during the week with bits and bobs nothing too much but drop him in his dinner every second day. Your father comes to you on a Sunday for his dinner and always come back saying how lovely it was and how great a cook you are and your wife keeps the house lovely etc etc, but he is so used to the daily dinners and the house tidied that the jobs barely get a mention. My mother used to get totally freaked out by that sort of thing happening.
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there's no issue of "care" at the moment, father is in good health and quite indipendent.

suits my brother because, like most first time buyers, had to buy on the outskirts of dublin, so would have to wait a few years to eventualy be able to afford to move back to a better location.

the care issue prob won't come up for another 15 years or so, i hope anyway.

from my fathers point of view, it's good as he'll have the company, but he should get a fair price for his property, or at least hold on to a relative portion.
 
Samson26 said:
I think if your brother is able to he should try to get a mortgage of say €350k and give each of ye and your father some cash (as your father would probably prefer to see you all enjoy your inheritance whilst he is alive) or if not give it all to your father but get him to put a clause in the contract that if your brother sells the house he has to split whatever profit he has made with the rest of you.

yes, this is what i'm thinking, buying a proportion of the property.

i'm sure this would also be alot better than bidding on a similar house in the open market, plus i'm sure the middle man could be cut out also.

Example (I'm going to use simple figures to make it easy):
The house is valued at 200k but he buys it for 100k therefore getting a 50% reduction. Further down the road he sells this for 300k he would have to give over 50% of this ie 150k to the rest of you to split as this is the % of the profit that he has made and makes it all fair!
Click to expand...
 
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