Bertie Ahern: Good deal or bad deal for people of Ireland

okay to bring it back on topic...Bertie and co are aiming for their third term of office....so who is to blame for our health system ? Bertie and Co? Do we feel strongly enough to do something about it or are we afraid of Podge and Rodge getting into Government and making matters worse?

Are Bertie and Co doing good for the people here overall? It seems to be the impression judging on many polls lately. Bertie is home and dry...no further need for anoraks.
 
Just to try to get back on topic - Would the Dept of Finance have issued uncrossed cheques to the Minister for his salary? If not uncrossed, how on earth could Bertie have cashed the cheques anywhere?
 
Just to try to get back on topic - Would the Dept of Finance have issued uncrossed cheques to the Minister for his salary? If not uncrossed, how on earth could Bertie have cashed the cheques anywhere?

Did he lodge them in Celia's account. Isnt that where the tribunal are looking now.
 
> Did he lodge them in Celia's account. Isnt that where the tribunal are
> looking now.

Do you mean joint account?
I can't see any reason why there would be difficulty lodging such a cheque in a joint account.

-Rd
 
> Did he lodge them in Celia's account. Isnt that where the tribunal are
> looking now.

Do you mean joint account?
I can't see any reason why there would be difficulty lodging such a cheque in a joint account.

-Rd
Didn't Bertie say he had no Bank Account during this period. Would he have said that if he had a joint account?
 
 
But wouldn't a joint account have been liable for inclusion in any discussions with regards to his separation? It'd hardly be likely that Celia would open up to her assets being included in such a legal situation.

I presume you're referring to the 50K that he saved. Your point being that if it was saved out of his salary which had been paid into the account then it would be included in the legal situation.

Of course a simple answer to the question... "How did you get paid?" would end all this speculation. I'm sure as Taoiseach he'd want that, for the good of the country obviously.

I mean what kind of Taoiseach would want such questions hanging over him going into an election, when they could be so easily dispensed with by giving a simple answer.

Unless....You don't think....what if there is no simple answer?
Oh!....I think I get it now. Wow.

-Rd
 
Of course a simple answer to the question... "How did you get paid?" would end all this speculation.

Absolutely, and I'm sure I'd stated this already here. We had a situation where the whole country was watching Enda Kenny in that Dail debate where they'd been fighting for more time to ask questions. He then stands up and asks 15 questions in one breath.

This kind of nonsense public debating allowed Bertie to cherry pick the questions he liked, and ignore the rest.

If Enda Kenny had asked the simple question above, or something similar along the lines of "Where did you save the £50,000 if you didn't have a bank account?" he wouldn't have fallen so dramatically in the recent polls, and probably would have increased his popularity by showing some decisiveness. You gotta wonder what kind of muppets are advising Deputy Kenny.
 
> Absolutely, and I'm sure I'd stated this already here

You sure did, and it's worth repeating over and over until the question get's asked in such a way that people can see it is being evaded.

-Rd
 

My God....I just read the abpve article...there's some difference in morals between here and Sweden ja! In Sweden they have to resign for something as little as a tv licence and here in the Green Isle (cos we're so green around the ears by now) they can get loans and not make repayments or pay interest for several years and still call it a loan... and they can get paid lump sums for summat and not have to pay tax on it as Finance Minister and accountant. There is something wrong here with this scenario methinks... we can now be known as a 'nation of twits and sinners!'
 
Rest assured if it was any other member of Fianna Fail, or a Junior or even senior minister, and Michael McDowell said he wanted that persons head on a plate, in return for staying in government, Bertie would have served it up with fries and a milkshake.

And said person could have done a whole lot less than Bertie to get taken out.

The only reason Bertie is still in charge is there was no way for the PD's to topple him without taking out the whole government, including themselves.
When you've just taken over a party and you're sitting on half as much public support as your sworn enemy Sinn Fein, it takes a special kind of leader to trigger an election.

And Michael McDowell is not a special kind of leader. He's just a great man for shouting the odds when the odds are in his favour.

-Rd
 
Bertie Ahern and Fianna Fail represent modern ireland, there is no question about it. If you ask any young person under 25 who they would vote for it is bertie ahern and fianna fail. Even with all the mistakes and lite corruption that is going on. They are afraid of the short term consequences if fianna fail don't get into power like high paid jobs in construction and the public sector drying up. Even though this maybe necessary for the long term viability of the country. The long term cosequences of fianna fails time in power will be the deplorable destruction of our countryside by urban sprawl and one off housing. This is an issue which under 25s don't care about and fianna fail knows it. We have the government we deserve and we only have ourselves to blame, thats democracy
 
as the poser of the original question as to how bertie managed to cash his cheques or if they were paid into an account of some sort I also have to admit bertie has some great people skills, which I witnessed first hand yesterday. his helicopter landed on one of the playing fields of St Pats in Drumcondra around 5pm yesterday and he had 2 cars waiting to transport him from there. unfortunately for him it was graduation day at the college and there was still a 500 hundred parents/graduates on campus. he alighted from the 'copter and headed towards the cars where there was a gathering of people just watching the spectacle. bertie being bertie waded straight into the throng and was happy to pose for the graduates/parents and this being 2006 every graduate had a state of the art digital camera with the result he spent upwards of half an hour or even longer for those photos etc and he was in top form throughout this period. Somehow I couldn't see the new leader of the pd's doing the same. grizzly definitely but the rest? still doesnt explain away paddy the plasterer of course, nor how his salary was actually received by him.
 
cuchulainn;315041 said:
This is a very interesting question. If he was being paid by crossed cheque, the only way these could have been cleared would be via an account in his name. Yet he tells us he had no account at that time???
 

Too true Joe , Too Too True

Our main problem here is we do not have a viable opposition anymore. That fact hit home to me very clearly this week looking at the midterm elections in the States. I know there are a lot of self-righteous so and so's in this country who continually decry the state of the US , but there was something quite admirable about it all last week - democracy is alive and well in the US - when we hold up the mirror to ourselves - can we say the same thing here?

It you look how long FF have been in power over the history of the state - you'd have to ask the question what do we truly understand here by democracy? if you look at the stats since 1932 FF have been in power for 58 years and counting , the scattered occasions of FG and whoever else can make up the numbers comes to 17 in total - That is nowhere near the US or the UK or any of our Western European neighbours - its closer to that quasi democracy Japan and other latin american caudillo republics - even Fidel Castro hasn't been in power that long!

Fianna Fails domination is quite overwhelming and the longer they are in power the more entrenched they will become. It could be argued that this is pretty much par for course in ex-colonial countries particularly in the nation building period of our independent history when the creation of myth and legend was far more important than actual fact. The constant bit by bit creation of the republic/creating a separate identity from Britain is perfect example of this.

From the moment Dev played the cute hoer and stayed at home during the Treaty negotiations - the die had been cast - The purists made a grab for the soul of Romantic Ireland and its been theirs ever since . Fianna Fail are the "Slighty constitutional"* heirs to this tradition. In a country where family loyalty, religion, parish, history and tradition play such a huge part , a culture what revels in its supposed love for the "underdog" , admiration for the rogue and chancer , and most importantly a culture in where its more important who you know, rather than what you know , its very very easy to see why Fianna Fail are the "natural party" of Governent in this state.

One could argue that the moment Michael Collins signed the treaty in 10 Downing Street on that fateful night nearly 85 years now - he not only signed his death warrant , but also doomed his political heirs to be forever tainted with Britain and british rule - not really fully Irish in the republican sense.

After the war of independence and the resulting civil war , an already desperately poor society that had totally missed out on the Industrial revolution (well the 26 counties anyway) was completely on its knees. We were not part of the UK, yet at the same time tied at the hip economically. The Free state government had to try and rebuild a broken country at a time of laisse faire economics with the clippings of tin made worse by the flight of the Anglo Irish who possessed most of the wealth here in the first place, try and impose a degree of law and order where for the previous 10 years anarchy ,rejection of civil authority and rule of gun, and also have a cowered but undefeated popular opposition in exile still lurking in the long grass. All this against a background of the spectre of communism and facism swirling around the rest of Europe. I think its a miracle they did aswell as they did and something we should all be forever grateful for.

However we were still a 26 county dominion,we kept on the British parliamentary and civil services practices and our head of state was still the British Crown. Add to that the financial austerity that was required to get the country on its feet (No IMF , World Bank or EU to beg a few billion quid off then), you coulld stay at home and face abject poverty in a society where the Catholic Church, for so long the repository of Irish identity for a poor and ignorant conservative people, took its rightful place at the head and imposed its stratified and stifling grip , or emigrate which people did in their thousands.

Once Devalera, to his great credit ,decided to enter parliamentary politics , Fianna Fail's blend of populist demagogery,a nod to the church, socialist leaning economics beautifully wrapped in the flag and Brit bashing was understandably very attractive to not only to the 44% of the population who had rejected the free state in the first place , but to many others totally disillusioned with the economic condition of the country (bad luck having the great depression when you're in power). Fianna Fail were like a breath of fresh air and those first 6 years of power after 1932 were to put the seal on the enormous popularity and sympatheic disposition given to them down to this day.


They were blessed in having extremely able ,talented and brave leadership, while C na G, pre Fine gael self destructed with O Duffy and that bunch of headbangers known as the Blueshirts. DeValera , lemass, McEntee, O'Kelly etc etc took to Government like ducks to water and skillfully set about dismantling the Free state and its Legacy. Drawing from socialist and facist notions alike , the policy of self sustainabiity in a time of protectionism, producing all we can at home , slowly and surely getting rid of symbols of British rule in the most flamboyant way possible was very popular with a people who wanted something to feel good about. the effectiveness economically in hindsight , is questionable , emigration still continued unabated thru the thirties ,but all these industries as unviable as they were , created scarce jobs and patriotism did the rest.


Unquestionably Dev's greatest achievement was the 1937 Constitution. At a time when He literally had enough power to become a dictator, some more militant elements in the Catholic Church were urging him to follow Franco's lead - he turned around and gave us with out doubt one of the most liberal consitutions possible (bear in mind where all the other agrarian Catholic countries were at , at this time) , particularly his reference to tolerance for minorities,the Jews, was momentous in light of what was happening in Germany , Poland and most of Europe at the time. In that light he was years ahead of most of his fellow countrymen aswell. In this Fianna Fail had great leadership right up to the 70's. You mightn'd have agreed with them , but you could not doubt their sincerity and their personal morality and piety. All this combined with their wonderful organisation in very parish - they became and see themselves as a movement not just a party.

Still and all , We chucked them out a few times very 16 years or so to teach them some manners, always in time of economic downturn it would seem. We really just put them on detention . FF have been been blessed in that they have never had a fully coherent opposition movement to deal with. I mean, lets call a spade a spade , its been Fianna Fail versus everybody else since the 30's - They know it and they love it. FF have always managed to bring all sorts under their umbrella. Their long years in power have built up to unrivalled influence and patronage . And as everybody knows - power and influence draw in those who like to benefit from power and influence . CJH's dodgy but very astute romancing of the business classes with TACA and the such was a masterstroke. It might have upset the party elders and other keepers of Fianna Fail's egalitarian socialist flames but Charlie knew that they were fading away and money would be what counted in a developing Ireland.


The easy money to be made in Ireland then as now I believe as requires a generous dollop of government intervention- infrastructure contracts, public service contracts, planning decisions,state licences and monopolies etc etc. And Money will always go where it feels it can profit most. Why Bother with a motley crew of West Brits, capitalists, social democrats, socialists , marxists, bin charge protesters ,greens and other general grouches ,who when they can agree on anything will only stick together for a limited amount of time and most of that will be paralysis until they are kicked out again and the natural heirs return from exile. Fianna Fail are the boys to talk to if you want something - they are in gov most of the time , have appointed most of the civil service and fill nearly all the quangos - are far more disciplined and obeying of their leader (witness the almost comical performances of FF ministers during Charlies time and the recent Bertiegate episode in support of the boss - Im sure you all have your favourite one of these they happen so often) . Its a self perpetuating circle - where the money goes , ambitious people go and round and round and round we go.


FF's unbelievable luck recently to be in right place at the right time economically has helped (Dont tell me that God came down to Charlie in 1987 and said - "Thou will lead thy people to the promised land - heres the instruction manual its all here" -gimme a break -The whole Political establishment had no choice but to keep supping on the hard medicine that FG , to the virulent opposition of Labour in the coalition government , had started to dole out from '84 onwards after we had a close call with bankruptcy and had to be helped into the straightjacket by the EU and the IMF after Jack lynch and Charlie went mental with the state cheque book in the late 70's and early 80's have you ever read the 1977 Fianna Fail election manifesto? - a trade unionists wet dream - massive payrises for the entire public sector which was massive then, enormous road building projects, money for health, gardai,farmers ,fishermen and whatever you're having yourself -cloud cookoo land stuff in the midst of the worst global economic depression ,punctuated by oil shortages and spikes, since the 30s - in a country where you couldn't be guaranteed any state services or utilities from one week to the next as one mob would be out on strike!)

that and the world economic recovery which we , thank god, for the first time in our history were actually fit enough to benefit from has kept fianna fail , par perverted priests explosions and the like , in office ever since.

Its funny how people will see what they want to believe in , as opposed what is actually there. In the case of our economic renaissance I believe this to be case with our continuing love-affair with Fianna Fail. As outlined above the foundations for that had shag all to do with them. Im quite sure, had things not been so extremely bad ,and had the EU commission not been effectively running the department of finance -no discipline no more goodie bags from Brussels - Charlie would have continued on in much the same vein as before.


Yet as Harold McMillan famously said when asked about what changes things in politics "events , dear boy, events" and we hit the jackpot - our newly enforced financial discipline, combined with US economic rebirth and the silicon boom aided by vast largesse from Brussels created the Celtic Tiger and to give the politicians their credit - they didn't make a complete balls of it. How far this will continue in to the future is a matter of conjecture (Don't worry Brendan - I wont mention the P Word!)

I believe we are entering a new era in our history where some difficult decisions will have to be made in a timely fashion. Also I think people's aspirations and what they consider important are changing also. Even though it mightn't look it on the surface I think the whole political scene is extremely fluid - a moment of real opportunity for those who are brave enough to take it. Fianna Fail , IMO, look shagged out. They've grown too comfortable ,lethargic and completely out of ideas except for throwing money at whatever little issue that comes up and the PD's are taking the flack in Health and Justice - the two populist issues and the north appears to be reaching end game. However they will get re elected unless the overall economy crashes to the ground in the next 6 months - I've more of a chance in the next Miss Universe than that happening.

Our main problem is the opposition - There is no way around it - We don't have one. Until we get a real one – well get used to the status quo or leave the country – your choice.

The choice at the moment is between the current Gov who say they will keep doing things kind of the same way but better in the future and an embryonic opposition who say they will do the same things only they will be better and more moral about it.


Well maybe they have a point – look at the democrats in US last week – they basically ran on the ticket that they weren’t with Stupid (GWB)

Then again never in the history of the US has there been a more clueless ,usless , corrupt , hypocritical arrogant divisive and ultimately out of touch ruling party. I have to admit they even make Bertie look good.

We are in the same situation that Britain has been under labour – Tony Blair is not popular , labour look tired and the tories in disarray.

Back here when I look at the opposition parties I have to despair.

Fine Gael are coming to a moment when they will have to make a decision as to whether they are a real political party with the kind of ideals and vision that made them electable under Garret Fitz , or if they are just the political wing of the consumers assoc of Ireland – instantly springing to action to decry whatever the government is going regardless of the merits.

Labour – I really have no idea where the labour party are going at the moment. The more radical elements have defected to Sinn Fein – Bertie has the unions in his pocket. All that is left is the personality politicians who have been around for ages, the remnants of the spring tide over a decade ago now and it would seem to be an even more nepotic party than Fianna Fail with a strong dose of anti Americanism thrown in for good measure.

The Green Party – ditto the labour party – yet even more reactionary and negative and completely failing to come up with any coherent and realistic policies of their own.

All in All It might not be a bad time to lose an election as I believe Fianna Fail might be about to reap the whirlwind for their incompetence in the couple of years. Time for the opposition to take a hard look at themselves and see its time to move from "We're not Fianna Fail" and come up with something radical and visionary - it may take time - but it may have a more lasting effect and ultimately more benificial to the country in the long run , rather than worrying about the numbers to see if they will qualify for mercs and perks when the results come in at the election

* Sean Lemass
 
best read I had all day edo. agree with most of it. while Dev's 1937 Constitution was probably the best we could hope for in this country it nowhere matched Kamel Ataturks constitution for Turkey in 1923 for bravery or forward looking. Good post though.
 
Bertie continues to survive by default -- Enda Kenny is simply not a viable choice as Taoiseach in most people's eyes. However, whether we should be content to accept the kind of government that is there by such default is another matter.

I think that FF will return to power again, and FG will then realise that they need to gain some credibility by getting leaders and policies. Maybe Mairead McGuinness will come back from Brussels at that stage and provide taoiseach material?

As to whether Bertie is good for the country, in my view, no, I abhor the "cute hoor" politics and self serving nature of the current mob. Unfortunately there appears to be a poor selection of alternatives out there. At a time when we have a lot of spare money in government coffers, a bit of visionary leadershiop would lay the foundations for a great country for the future, but this is sadly lacking.