Discussion in 'Financial campaigns and consultations' started by celina, 3 Mar 2009.
hi, does anyone know anything about this fund, how is it doing?
This was a higher-risk fund in that it invested in one property in one city and therefore in one asset class. Launch was 2007 so I'm guessing it's down in value but the only place you'll get a definitive update is from Bank of Ireland.
Coincidentally, I just enquired about the follow on Amsterdam Fund in my local branch this evening. I was told that neither the Lisbonne or my one has been valued yet due to market volatility, but they still seem to be holding up.
How they know that without a valuation, I don't know!! It seems we will be looking at a longer term investment now as in at least seven years.
Rental is still quite strong.
I guess its going to be a "wait and see" situation.
Well at least it would not have been impacted by currency problems as the Uk Property funds have been, though there is no doubt that this fund must be in negative territory given the outlook for commercial property at present.
Any revaluation is certain to show this whether it has or has no yet been completed it's only a matter of time, that said id imagine it's a long term investment so really you would just have to ride out the storm on this as nearly all property funds are closed to encashment at present due to the difficulties in selling commercial property at this time.
You should request a statement from BOI in order to ascertain the current value if you so require but i wouldnt be too hopeful on the value of your fund at present unfortunately...
Ah yes, the renowned "stick your fingers in your ears and sing la la la la" method of property valuation!! Irish banks are pioneering this method I believe...
What fund managers have French/Belguim/Dutch or German commerical investments?
And if the BoI do send you a report how is anyone in their wildest dreams going to believe it. The BoI are in such trouble with their funds they are likely to put anything in writing other than the truth.
Do you have any updates as to the progress of the Amsterdam fund?
In September I was told that the initial 50k investment was now worth somewhere in the region of 18-20k as far as I can remember.
They had no plans to sell the property and now the investment was likely to be for 10 years!!!
latest and greatest, just spoke to bank of Ireland life today.
- Current value is 12,462
- & available for sale from Oct 2014 (if anyone is interested!)
Recent update from Bank of Ireland life is that the property has been sold at a loss and the value of the investment is approx 30% of original amount.
What a disaster, 70% loss. I don't understand why BOI isn't staying in the investment for the long haul. Its exiting in year 5 of a minimum 7 year investment.
BOI Life sent me a cover letter with q&a fact sheet in which it states;
If the property has fallen by just 22%, then how come my investment is down significantly more?
....this was a geared investment. Borrowing made up 60% of the purchase price of the property. The effect of gearing is that any losses are magnified.
Check out this piece from Aug'07;
I have sent several specific queries to BoI who have promised a reply probably in December 2012. My concerns are based around disposal of funds of the sale and the very high initial costs which significantly hit our investment outcome. I'm happy to share the correspondence with other dissappointed investors.
Yes please, PM sent.
(can you change your settings to accept private messages, thanks)
8till8;Could not access my profile page to change the settings today but have sent a request to the site admin to get the access needed. Will check again tomorrow.
44 Rue de Lisbonne
In the BoI case the investors lost 70% of their funds for a 22% loss in the property value. This was partly caused by the 60/40 gearing but 24% of the losses were in the ' purchase and sales' costs which were borne fully by the investor cash funds. To date I have not received a detailed account of these very substantial costs.
Sixone: I just tried sending a pm again and it give this message;
Sixone has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.
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Sorry and I don't wish to rock the boat or rub further salt into the already open wounds but
Had the investment gone the other way and a 70% increase in the value of the investment less disposal charges for a 22% increase in property value would we be having this debate. Agree that these type of investments were not suitable for everyone but surely some amount of personal responsibility must be taken into account.
Maybe, but the Bank do have a responsibility to detail the merits of a positive return and the downside risks if it all were to go wrong. We, and all, from this thread are unaware if the Bank detailed the downside risks of the Investment in question.
According to the monitor's reply I can not receive pm until I have al least 15 posts. I' ve asked him to send you my personal email address. I'll publish it here if you do not get it. N
I contend that we, as investors, have taken personal responsibility- 70% direct losses + the fact that our money was out of our control for 5 years.
I am specifically questioning the very significant costs of the transactions/ fees.
I am also convinced that a very rushed sale of the property was based on an exceptionally conservative valuation. As investors we had no opportunity to influence that leap into a panic sale to what was an unsolicited purchaser From Munich. N
why do you think the sale was rushed?
had the loan to value ratio been breached with the lender?
what term was left on the lease with existing tenant?
what was the outlook for the Paris property market for the next few years?
my understanding is that these factors would have an impact on the decision to sell (speaking as someone who has gone through this with a 90% loss within a different syndicate) and that the bank selling in theory was to provide the best exit strategy for investors.
Were the purchase, management and sale costs not set out with the original prospectus?
If loan to value was breached, sale may have been forced, if lease term remaining was short makes more sense to sell building with tenant insitu now than two or three years with it vacant. if outlook for Paris market was weak and the offer received was above fair market value again it may have made sense to sell now.
Not saying any of this makes the 70% loss any more palatable however there are usually reasons behind the sale now.
I have invested in three different property syndicates over the last 10 years, aware that all eggs were in one asset class, aware that the gearing element could magnify gains but also magnify losses, made money one one, lost substantial (to me) monies on two. In my case lessons learned, any future investments will be in more liquid assets with no gearing and with better diversification.
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