Assetless death - must executors still go through the whole Probate process?

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Marsupial

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Situation is that father-in-law has just died.

His will leaves everything to his spouse (who is alive). The executors are his 3 adult children.

The couple have one joint bank account which, I understand, won't form part of his estate. The funeral expenses will be paid from this account.

The family home is in both names and his widow will continue to live there for the foreseeable future. (I assume that it's not part of the estate either?)

He has no debts and the only financial asset in his name is €12 in an old Post Office savings book.

Given the circumstances, are the executors obliged to go through the long and somewhat tedious probate process?

(They'd be quite happy to shred the post office book if that would enable them to avoid the whole process!)

Thanks.
 
it is not assetless if there is a property and a bank account

When his wife dies, someone will probably end up doing two probates - one for your father-in-law and one for his wife.

Far better off to get one over with now - if the only asset is the house, then probate may be long, but not tedious as it will be fairly straightforward.

It could be left till later, but that will complicate things down the line and hold up the 2nd probate
 
The joint account will not form part of the estate so does not pass under the will. Its contents automatically pass to the surviving account holder.

As for the joint property, you will have to establish how it was held by looking at the title deeds. If held “as joint tenants”, it does not pass under the will and vests entirely in the surviving joint tenant automatically without the need for probate.

However, if it is held jointly “as tenants in common”, it passes under the will and probate is required to transmit the half share of the house under the terms of the will.
 
jpd said:
it is not assetless if there is a property and a bank account

When his wife dies, someone will probably end up doing two probates - one for your father-in-law and one for his wife.

Far better off to get one over with now - if the only asset is the house, then probate may be long, but not tedious as it will be fairly straightforward.

It could be left till later, but that will complicate things down the line and hold up the 2nd probate
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That's puzzling. I had understand that both the family home and the joint account would pass automatically to the other joint holder outside of the will, through survivorship. This would leave only the €12 in the Post Office book to form the estate? And that book could easily disappear!
 
Johnno75 said:
As for the joint property, you will have to establish how it was held by looking at the title deeds. If held “as joint tenants”, it does not pass under the will and vests entirely in the surviving joint tenant automatically without the need for probate.

However, if it is held jointly “as tenants in common”, it passes under the will and probate is required to transmit the half share of the house under the terms of the will.
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But "as joint tenants" is almost always the case for a married couple, right?

"Tenants in common" is usually for friends or siblings purchasing together I think.
 
On the page of the Title Deeds headed "Ownership" is written "Title Absolute" and the couple's two names are then written out, followed by the words "are full owners"

No mention of "joint tenants", alas.
 
Shirazman said:
On the page of the Title Deeds headed "Ownership" is written "Title Absolute" and the couple's two names are then written out, followed by the words "are full owners"

No mention of "joint tenants", alas.
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Ok. You’ll probably need to get legal advice so. I have it in my mind that where the deeds are silent, a presumption arises as to the nature of the tenancy, I just can’t remember which!
 
Just because it passes on survivorship, does not make probate unnecessary - simpler, yes but still necessary
 
jpd said:
Just because it passes on survivorship, does not make probate unnecessary - simpler, yes but still necessary
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Why?

In the absence of any debt, and if all the cash and real assets have passed under survivorship, then the assets do not form part of the estate.

Accordingly, there is nothing to administer.

Why would you go to the trouble and (considerable) expense of taking out a Grant of Probate for it to be of no use (unless you want to administer the €12.00 in the post office account?)
 
Ok, just wait and see what happens - transferring land title will be a thorn in your side in a few years
 
Shirazman said:
On the page of the Title Deeds headed "Ownership" is written "Title Absolute" and the couple's two names are then written out, followed by the words "are full owners"
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That's a joint tenancy.

The title documents would have to specify that each co-owner has a specific share in the property for a tenancy in common to arise.

There's no need for the executors to apply for a grant of probate - all assets in this case pass by survivorship.

If you could be bothered, An Post will transfer the €12 to the apparent beneficiaries on providing a form of indemnity - no need to take out a grant of probate to deal with the €12.
 
jpd said:
Ok, just wait and see what happens - transferring land title will be a thorn in your side in a few years
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I would have thought that all that has to be done now is for the surviving tenant to lodge the deceased’s death certificate etc with the Land Registry to note the death on the title so that the whole property is in the surviving tenant’s name. That puts to bed any issues surrounding title, no?
 
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Johnno75 said:
I would have thought that all that has to be done now is for the surviving tenant to lodge the deceased’s death certificate etc with the Land Registry to note the death on the title so that the whole property is in the surviving tenant’s name
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No need to do that either.
 
Thanks for all of the advice, folks.

A small life assurance policy (worth ~ €1200) has now turned up, so it looks as though the family may have to go down the probate road in order to make a claim.
 
Shirazman said:
A small life assurance policy (worth ~ €1200) has now turned up, so it looks as though the family may have to go down the probate road in order to make a claim.
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When my mother died moons ago, my father's life insurance company told him they couldn't pay out until probate was completed. I rang them pointing out that this was his policy on her and, as far as I could see anyway, nothing to do with probate. Then they sent a cheque.
 
My further researches have established that there's something called the small estates procedure that the family may be able to use in order to avoid the Probate process, but I can find very very little ionformation about it online. Has anyone ever heard of it/availed of it, please?
 
Advice on wills and inheritance being given on the Claire Byrne show just now. Might help someone.
 
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