Architect problems

colmanmc said:
Architects Fees of 12.5% (+ VAT) of construction costs is not uncommon, so a contract sum of €75,000 would mean Architects fees of €8,750 + 21% VAT = a low 5 figure sum.
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What budgie is saying is that it cost (low 5 fiures) which could be anything up to €20,000 for the first set of drawings and planning application and then probably around €9,000 (The price for the resubmission was half that (just under five figures) the second time. A town planner was employed by the architect and paid for by Budgie - another €1000.

All in all it appears that Budgie paid upwards of €30,000 for plans and planning application so how in the name of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, mary and their wee donkey can that be perceived as being representative of the RIAI's scale of fees. I would have expected to have the building works carried out for that type of money

If those figures are near the mark and if it was me in that position I would be off to a solicitor
 
There is no RIAI scale of fees, there is however a Fee Survey which may be of use.

However standard practice is to charge a % of the contract sum as fees, payable in a minimum of 4 stages (in basic terms - 1)design, 2)planning, 3)tender, 4)construction).

The contract sum initially will be based on an estimate or budget, will later get updated by a quantity surveyor, then again when the tender price comes in from the builder and finally on completion of the job - once everything is done and paid for - at this point the architect / QS will do what is known as a final account and the last payment of fees will reflect the difference in % between the estimates / tender price and what the whole thing actually cost.

Typical % fees range from about 2-3% for very large contacts (in the millions) to about 18% for very small contracts (extensions / renovations) however with competition, architects / engineers etc are all free to charge what they feel is appropriate - Norman Foster, for example, would be towards the 18% or higher end of this.

At today's building prices a house extension could easily be priced at 150k (that would be circa 70sq.m. @ 2000euro per sq.m. rule of thumb). If we assumed a % fee of say 7% that would be a total fee of 10,500 euro. From above we can see that half of this should have been payable at planning stage so approximately 5,250euro would be the cost of the planning permission.

So basically it all depends on the size / finish of the proposed development and the % fee agreed with the architect.

Low 5 figure fees for planning stage would not be uncommon for either high profile architects (or expensive architects) or contract sums over 300k.

I cannot help but think that the root of this problem has been a misunderstanding of how architect's typically charge and the scope and range of services that clients get - both of which should be discussed and made clear at the initial project kick-off meeting / interviews.
 
As MG01 says there is no RIAI scale of fees, its up to each individual to agree with their architect what fees they agree to pay. For that, you expect a certain level of service and if you feel you're not getting that, that you have an issue.

If he/she is a member of the RIAI, they have an arbitration process which you can go through if you're not happy with the service provided by one of their members.

If you signed a written agreement with your architect, and I hope you did, that should outline the scope of fees and if he/she is trying to charge you anything outside fo that, you may have a strong case for arbitration
 
If planning was turned down in the first place in relation to an incompliance with the building regs - then that architect should not have been paid.

If it was simply that the planner did not agree with the style/layout/window positions etc its a grey area. The client may have been advised that a certain aspect of the design that they wanted might not be suitable. The architect should have been in a position to expect what might not be acceptable - was it a number of issues or just one large one?

It looks more like he/she got out of their depth, or has simply too much work on at the moment.

In any event, a competant engineer should be employed to supervise construction works and assist with the practical translation of the architects drawings into something constructable.

Surely the architect will release the design.

Also that fee seems large, but I suppose you are paying for artistic abilty.....
 
Planning applications are rarely audited for compliance with Building Regulations - the submitting of a planning application is considered a declaration of compliance, hence it is unlikely that the application was refused on grounds of Building Regulations (besides - the planning authority do not monitor this - Building Control does).

Planners can only refuse planning on points of planning law - not personal opinions.

Architects will assume the risk for design and successful registration of a planning application but never the risk of grant of permission as this is a 3rd party decision and outside of the control of the Architect. It is therefore quite reasonable to charge for re-submitting an application.

As indicated before fees should have been agreed in advance and a re-submittal would reflect the original fee.

Architect's would typically re-submit for free, if, for example, they forgot to put a north point on drawings, or printed them at the wrong scale (ie something that's their fault).

In this case, we have no idea what design was agreed with the client and therefore comment on why the application was refused is difficult.

All I can say is to encourage people to agree fees and the services they will get for these fees (all of which are set out in the RIAI Client - Architect Agreement contract).
 
Dundhoone said:
Also that fee seems large, but I suppose you are paying for artistic abilty.....
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Judging by the insistence of planners to only allow houses that are almost identical to the neihgbours building style I dont know if anybody can argue that theres any artistic ability
 
It amazes me that people feel they are able to comment on the size of the fee for this project.
As stated previously, fees are quoted as a percentage of the total cost of the works...so without knowing the total cost of the works its hardly reasonable to call the fee a rip off!
 
And here was me thinking that we could comment as it is a discussion forum.

If Budgie wants to post up what the fees were then we would all be enlightened but it certainly appears that he/she paid (or was invoiced for) upwards of €30,000 for the work. That is a disgrace.

Arcitects engaged on jobs will normally charge approx. 5% of the estimated cost. This will rise if structural engineers, quantity surveyors etc are retained but in this instance it appears that it was the architect only. He then had the balls to go and hire a planning consultant to get him out of the mess of a planning refusal and get the client to pay this up front.

To quote the OP in relation to the architects assertion of what it would cost to resubmit a planning application - "I asked for a quote for resubmitting (several times). I was told it would be "minimal" as there were only tweaks and not to worry.
Is €9,000 approx. a minimal fee for tweaking a plan and resubmitting for planning - that is a complete rip off and anyone attempting to justify that fee must believe that we are all stupid

Edit: The 5% referred to is the norm around Donegal so it is unfair of me to assume it is the same in other parts of the country but I also consider it unfair for architects to charge more than this
 
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I agree with you that the resubmitting cost seems far too much given that the OP was told the cost would be minimal but I still maintain that comments on the size of the fee are meaningless given that we don't know what the fee agreed between the architect and client was based on.

If someone told you that a car cost 80,000 you would find out the make and model of the car before you decided on whether or not it was value for money!!! Similarly, if this is a renovation of a large period property where conservation of existing features is important then the figures quoted would not be outrageous. I'm also assuming that the job involves more than renovation if planning permission was required.

On the other hand if the client (OP) has agreed to pay over 20% for example of the cost of the works then he/she is indeed being ripped off.

An architect would typically charge anything up to 15% of the total cost of the works for his service. A one-off house/very specialised work would attract a fee at the high end of the scale, whereas a straightforward warehouse space would be nearer the 5% end of the scale.
 
 
Engineering fees:

Works valued up to €125,000 - 10%
Works 125k - 375k - €2,500 + 8%
Works 375k to 625k - €6,250 + 7%

And so on upward.

These would be guideline max fees , not including expenses (which should be low on a house , if you hire an engineer within your locality)

There would be an additional fee where there would be a significant amount of re-inforced concrete (unlikely in a house situation)

There is also an additional charge for the Health and Safety responsiblity of the design

0k to 238k - 0.8% of works value
238K to 712k - €475 + 0.6% of works value.


I cant speak for Architects, but engineers who are EI chartered or members are expected to negociate their fee within these maximums.
 
MG01 - Nice to see you jump to the defence of people involved in rip offs. And no, Im not afraid to use the words rip off especially in this thread. I will qualify that by saying that there are a lot of decent architects out there who dont charge an arm and a leg. Much the same as solicitors the profession is self regulated and hence there are no markers laid down when it comes to fees.

You quite rightly said about the RIAI's survey of fees. A survey of what architects are charging and a fixe scale of fees are two completely different things.

You appear to be an architect so tell us what percentage fees you charge
 
There are no Fee Scales, or fixed fee minimums or maximums for architects - the competition authority forbids fee fixing or fee scales.

Architects are free to charge as much or a little as they like. The RIAI fee survey is indicative of what registered members of the institute charge.

As for a self regulated industry...the title of architect is not protected at present - anyone can call themselves an architect. The industry is not self regulated.

I suggest a course / book in construction economics or perhaps reading the competition authorities reports on the various professions. Alternatively a scan through the RIAI forms of contract and Client Agreement forms may be of some help.

Regards
 
I suppose the bottom line here is the same as with hiring any professional.
You get a number of quotes. You check that they are fully qualified Civil Engineers or Architects. You view pictures/drawings of previously completed works. You ask for contact details for references for these projects.

And then you pay what you are happy to pay/think its worth, bearing in mind the other quotes you may have recieved.

I have encountered engineers/Architects and other scientific and construction related professionals who will swear blind that they cannot put a price on something until they get into doing it. Always agree a price, or walk away.

The OP should have agreed a price for re-submission of the planning.
 
Guys

Thanks for all your comments. Just to clarify...

1. The fees Nutty Nut has guessed are close to the mark. The job size is quite high i.e. could be €400k.

2. At this stage, I have paid the bill for the first submission. The second submission bill has not been paid and have had no contact since. I am hoping if PP is granted that I can take the plans elsewhere and get an engineer or someone to supervise.

Personally I don't believe in recommended fee scales and I wonder if the Competition Authority has anything to say on this.

A bit disheartened about the whole thing needless to say!
 
Ouch! Certainly sounds like a rip off to me.

I got approval a few weeks ago for a largish extension and the architects fees were 3k + VAT. Excellent service by way of meetings / drawings and amended drawings and then they had a preplanning consultation with Planner - all went very smoothly. This price was for Dublin.

Roy

 
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