Architect and Percolation tests

noodle

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Am paying architect 8% of total build cost - is it unreasonable to think this might include the cost of percolation test. Or does an engineer need to be hired?
 
noodle said:
Am paying architect 8% of total build cost - is it unreasonable to think this might include the cost of percolation test. Or does an engineer need to be hired?

Woodsman. Surely it is in the architects interest to max the cost of building when he/she is on a fat commission like that? His/her job is to design and see through the building of the house of your dreams. I would have thought a flat fee, negotiated privately would be more appropriate, seeing that the more the house costs the more the architect gets. Thats ok when paying an auctioneer to sell for you, but in this case???
Normally though the percolation test would be outside an architects list of tasks.
 
Percolation tests

Westmeath..... and they don't have a list of approved engineers.

On average how much should the percolation tests cost?
And does it take long to get the report?

And who has final decision on the septic system?
 
Woodsman said:
I would have thought a flat fee, negotiated privately would be more appropriate,.

This is the best route to go down. I'm guessing that your budget is 160,000 for the build. 8% sounds like a commercial property not a one off house. You could agree a fee with him for the drawings and the planning application and then pay per visit to ensure the job is being built as designed. For that fee he is probably qualified/insured to sign off the property for mortgage/building standards/planning purposes, which saves you having to engage a seperate engineer.

You would probably be better off with a seperate engineer to sign off the various stages of the building process - like a second opinion really.

The architect may have the necessary qualification to carry out the site suitability report - I think it's a qualification from the EPA given after a short course . The report will cost you anything up to 600 euro and involves usually two visits to site. Once your site passes a site suitability test you are generally free to choose your own treatment system (septic tanks on their own are a no no nowadays). Make sure the person doing the test doesn't have a connection with a particular treatment plant company as he may put their system down as the recommended system and your planning will specifically state that meaning you are stuck with it.
 
Oh the plot thickens .....

We just got the percolation tests done .... one visit after holes were dug!!!!
And of course the engineer has a friend who just happens to do septic systems... so the brouchure will be included........

About the budget try 300,000 plus architect and other fees. We are really pushing the boat out as this will be our one and only home - and we wanted to get it right straight off, and not have to finish it off over time. The latest installment from the architect is that we can't afford a geothermal heat pump system on a budget of €1700/sqm. Can this be true - or did he see us coming?
He's already talking of increasing his fee - as we requested another meeting before we get to planning to iron everything out.

HELP
 
300,000 for a 176 sq m house (1894 sq feet) is some budget (or did I get my calcs wrong) as most self builders aim for the €100 sq ft mark but of course it all depends on the finish you want and the work you are going to put in yourself.

This means that you are allowing 100,000 euro for the finish that you want.

See here for the 2005 guide on costs http://www.scs.ie/publication/Homeowners%20guide%202005.pdf

Average looks to be €1300 sq m which includes fees. That’s for the basic finish so perhaps you could do better paying that for building the house €228,000 which includes the arch/engineer fees. They would give you an allowance for not putting in kitchen, heating boiler etc.

Then go and spend the remaining €100,000+ on your kitchen, flooring, wardrobes, tiler, landscaping, geo thermal, all room audio etc. You might have more control and choice. You would have a smashing finish with €100,000 on a 2,000 sq ft house.
 
Hi Noodle,

did you sign a contract with the architect with the agreed 8% fee? If so he cannot raise the fee if there is a signed contract with original quote. You are obviously goin to be paying him a huge sum by the end of this and all meetings phonecalls etc.. should be included in all of this. The only time he would be able to raise this fee is if he was charging you differently ie. on a time basis.
I am also doing a self build although the architect is charging 10% of build for the whole project(we were quoted 11-12% by a number of other architects) he has met with us a number of times changed the plans at least 3 times on our request, met with planner etc..

I wouldnt accept any charge increase. As for the geothermal pump research on the interent for costs, before you decide. I think there is also some sort of tax or grant for energy efficent heating systems at the moment?? could be wrong on this though??
 
8% is reasonable, not cheap (in the region of 6%) and not expensive (in the region of 12%) so I wouldn't be too worried about that.
% fee is the usual way for architects to charge for their services so there's nothing unusual there - you can check with the RIAI, there is no scale of fees so each architect's fee will differ, some will operate on fixed fee basis, but to be frank, fairly few, generally for a contract value of 300k 8% seems quite good - 10% would be more normal and I know several design based firms that would charge as much as 18%.

As for your budget - 1700/sq.m. is slim enough, generally I would advise clients that somewhere in the region of 2000 - 2500/sq.m. would finish a job well so unfortunately - it is not surprising that the heat pump cannot be afforded, perhaps you can save money elsewhere?

And lastly - in relation to charging for extra meetings, hiring an architect, or any professional buys their time...to an extent - there has to be a limit and when you are not charging per hour, in plain business terms - limits must be set.

In general I would allow for an initial meeting, a subsequent meeting with sketch proposals, a follow up meeting with a more final design, occasionally a further meeting just to wrap things up and then the next meeting would be post planning to discuss tender and construction issues.
During tender & construction there will probably be a few meetings to finalise materials and finishes and perhaps internal layouts and then site meetings every 2 weeks. I think it is reasonable to charge for meetings above this. In general I would suggest asking for drawings to be emailed to you, print them, discuss them yourselves, list ideas / changes you may have and then either email back, telephone or request a meeting knowing that there's something concrete to discuss.

the building process and most particularly designing your own home is stressful - what your architect should have done at the beginning was to outline to you the entire process, key dates by which decisions must be made, what can be changed easily and what can't and therefore requires thought early on and in general make the whole process clear to you - I believe most good architects will do this.

Percolation testing would always be an extra and not included in the basic % fee agreed.

Hope that helps let you know that you're probably not alone in thinking all of these things, but that on the surface everything seems to be progressing normally. Perhaps, and I don't mean to be rude, you have either been demanding too much of your architects time, stretching the budget a little - or else you have a grumpy architect who promised you too much.
 
I am surprised - even the allegedly high spec companies don't go above €2000/sqm! What do you get for €2500/sqm? And then there are people on different threads talking about €100/sqft for standard and €150/sqft v high spec.

With regard to the architect - I think we have a competence issue to be honest. He's just starting out on his own... so maybe that's it. However he made us feel that 8% was a great deal, but we really seem to be paying for his inexperience.
For example we are supposed to be going to planning soon - in fact based on his original time plan we should be two months into planning at this stage - so last week he sent us the final drawings, with missing windows..... and the plans don't match the external elevations. Then the planning report has a couple of lines on housing need - when in fact we have a really strong case ... and with regard to environmental issues, it looks like we're making no effort when in fact in our original brief to the guy it said specifically that we wanted to focus on things such as heating.... so solar panels and geothermal - and there's nothing in the report.
In fact he just seemed to have decided to rule it out based on cost, and not even tell us. Apparently in our budget we should be able to afford one €3000 solar panel.
And they are just a couple of things wrong with the planning application - and he thinks we're still going ahead even though we requested another meeting to iron everything out before going to planning.
We told him we had a issue with communication - and he brushed over it saying we had all the meetings we were supposed to...
However if we have meetings and he goes off and basically ignores what we say, that isn't good enough. Equally we so you can email him, and he seems to take out only the bit he's interested in.....
If it's this bad now what'll he be like when the building is going on.....

Sorry about rant - but basically I feel like I'm being really ripped off, so far all I've gotten from this guy is some nice (not matching) pictures and not much else - and his bill is rising by the day!!!
 
this will be our one and only home



This is what I would do.

Only because you are nearly there with the application continue along with the architect and let him put the planning application in. Even if there are a few items not quite right with the drawings. I know you have concerns about “seeing to be green” on the application but perhaps he knows (you are local to the area) based on your housing need that you are likely to get permission anyhow.

You may get a further information request let him deal with that. Just get your permission. Then fire him. Offer him €x euro for his work to that point.

Then I would engage another architect (even just a draughtsman) to draw up the changes that you wanted, like solar panels, geo thermal, change of window etc and you could (copy the last application) send that application in yourself for planning. Unless you are changing your entire layout you should be able to get started on the house while you are waiting on the changes to come through. Remember that the people you should be asking about solar panels and geo thermal are the experts in those fields and they will give you plenty of info of what way it should be set up to give to the architect/draughtsman.

Then I would engage (like loads of other people do) an engineer to supervise the building. If you engage a decent builder (supervised by the engineer) for the full contract you are going to have your house built properly. You will know your house better than anybody and will notice if they leave out a wall or window etc.

Houses are a little more complicated that bricks and mortar but I bet this time next year you will know exactly what architraves, cavity barriers, soap bars, fascias, BODs and skim coats are!
 
"We told him we had a issue with communication - and he brushed over it saying we had all the meetings we were supposed to..."

Your right to be worried.
Your relationship with this guy will be still for some time to come.
Is he a RIAI registered architect?
If things get really bad you could have a talk with the RIAI.
 
Hmmm - your concerns about your architect seem to be fair, it's one thing to charge a fee, but to not receive the propper services in return is not good.

Unfortunately the cheapest thing to do is to stick with him until post planning stage, although, should he mess this up then it will cost a fair bit to re-lodge - it's a difficult one.

If he is RIAI registered perhaps contact them and see what they have to say, if he is not, all they will be able to offer is advice on how to handle the situation. Are you sure he is a Qualified architect?(B.Sc B.Arch or Dip.Arch) - check out his credentials.

As far as the engineer to supervise the building - in general I would use a (good) architect. While engineers are qualified and generally good at understanding and supervising foundations, drains and structure, not that many have decent site experience (unless you get a site engineer), but more importantly they generally don't know a huge amount about finishes and certainly do not posess a design background which might enable them to think on their feet and re-design issues as they arise on site(which they will). Personally, and as an architect myself, if I was building my own house I would engage a good engineer to inspect foundations, drains, structural walls & beams and the roof structure - I would leave all other matters to an architect - you will get a better designed and nicer looking house at the end of it.

But - it would seem like you need a new architect. Perhaps sit him down, express your concerns to him and give him an ultimatum, that you want to see a full planning pack and outline program together with a preliminary Health and Safety report and a risk assessment survey of the job in 2 weeks time and an outline of when you will have to pay the builder.

this will test him and keep him busy. All of this is possible in 2 weeks (if you work like crazy) but the Prelim. H&S and Risk Assessment reports together with the program and suggested dates for payment to the contractor will test his competance.(it is difficult to know when exactly you will have to pay a contractor at this stage, but in general he should be able to tell you around what stages the contractor will look for certs. of payment).

Try that - or go to the RIAI and select a new architect, odds are they'll be more expensive - but you won't have the incompetence issues.

MG
 
Are you sure he is a Qualified architect?(B.Sc B.Arch or Dip.Arch) - check out his credentials.


I thought anybody can use the title "Architect"
 
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