Any chance of Banks "wriggling out" of trackers ?

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Hi Peter,

Yes, both parts are in my tracker contract. My reading of "unavailable" is that if for some unforeseen reason, the ECB actually ceased to operate, or was restructured in some way as to cause it not to actually quote a repo rate. I don't think our circumstances now qualify as this rate is available.

Clause 6 (c) states "notwithstanding anything else provided in this Offer letter letter, the varied applicable interest rate shall never, in any circumstances, be less than 0.1% over one month's money at the Euro Inter Bank Offered Rate (EURIBOR).

Does this clause in any way contradict the Special conditions regarding the repo rate? Can anyone explain what it means in plain English - have looked up one month Euribor and it is currently 0.4% (with 12 month at 1.226%). If there is any contradiction here, this was certainly never brought attention to me.
 
Tailspin, way back in February 2008 the 1 month Euribor was 4.239%. The ECB was 3% (having not moved since June 2007). I am quoting the rates as per the relevant weblinks in my previous posting.

The wording of clause 6(c) is “Notwithstanding anything else provided in this Offer Letter, the varied applicable interest rate shall never, in any circumstances, be less than 0.1% over the one month’s money at the Euro Inter Bank Offerred Rate (Euribor).

Let's assume someone has a 0.8% plus ECB tracker. As at February 2008 the interest rate paid by the borrower would have been 3.8%. At the same time clause 6(c) appears to say that the applicable rate would have been 4.339% (Euribor plus 0.1%). It seems to me – but I could be reading this wrong – that the borrower was underpaying an amount of 0.539% pa during the time this divergence existed.

Today the ECB rate is 1% and the last daily Euribor 1 month amount was - as you point out - 0.405%. In these circumstances clause 6(c) cannot kick in.

I cannot imagine a bank seeking to claw money from a borrower for short term divergences which make clause 6(c) operate. I have not looked at the historical differences to perform an overall plus or minus figure. I don't see any need to at this time. I just wanted to raise the issue about fine print in contracts which seek to oust the upfront special conditions which banks draw our attention to (as opposed to the fine/small print).

Peter Oakes
 
Thanks Peter, this helps. By the way, if Euribor rates are falling as they seem to be, does that reflect a reduction in risk over time in interbank lending? What do you think Bank of Ireland cost of funds would be? Is it possible that over the next couple of years, that BOI's cost of funds might revert back towards the ECB rate, and allow banks to make a very modest margin on this lending?
 
I think this is pretty much a re-hash of what has already been said int his thread.

 
Irish Independent 4th May:
Borrowers warned to reject €15,000 offer to quit trackers

BANKS desperate to clean up their balance sheets could soon start trying to tempt mortgage holders to go elsewhere by offering them up to €15,000 off their home loan.
But consumers have been advised not to touch these "break-deals" unless they are offered more money.
The IBA said lenders were quietly trying to protect their capital by tempting borrowers to switch to other providers.
Paul Kinane of the IBA said lenders were particularly keen to get people to give up trackers, which are loss-making for them.
"Not only do many banks no longer want new customers, some don't even want their existing customers anymore," he said.
This situation could lead to a borrowers' market, in which mortgage holders will be able to negotiate lucrative deals with their banks in return for ending the relationship.
But Mr Kinane warned: "Consumers need to be extremely vigilant as experience would indicate that you get nothing for nothing as far as the banks are concerned."
He said that a homeowner with a €300,000 variable rate mortgage may be tempted by having 3pc to 5pc of this loan written off, which would amount to a discount of between €9,000 and €15,000.
The IBA said it believes tracker customers would need a break-deal offer above 25pc (€75,000 on a €300,000 mortgage) to make it worth their while. He said that customers who dealt directly with the banks could have significant pressure brought to bear on them to change their terms.
"We are urging mortgage holders not to feel pressured into changing their loan terms or switching to another provider. People should see this as an opportunity to perhaps secure a better deal in the market," Mr Kinane said.
Switch
He dismissed a recent offer from Bank of Scotland/Halifax of €1,000 to those who want to switch away from the bank as a "low ball offer".
The bank is closing and will no longer offer top-up loans, prompting it to advise customers with a valuable tracker to switch the entire home loan to another lender to avail of a top-up.
"It is likely to be the start of similar campaigns, particularly from those lenders keen to exit the Irish market.
The Consumers' Association has called on the Financial Regulator to carry out a probe of mortgage lenders to make sure they are not attempting to encourage homeowners to give up tracker mortgages.
The association's chairman, James Doorley, said lenders were under a statutory obligation, under the regulator's consumer protection code, to act in the best interests of customers. This meant that any attempt to incentivise customers to give up their tracker would be a breach of the code. Lenders are attempting to get people to give up their trackers when they get into arrears and need to restructure their mortgage.
A spokeswoman for the Financial Regulator has also said that lenders were required to act honestly and in the best interests of customers.
"Our firm view is that no bank should offer incentives for tracker mortgage customers to switch to less favourable options," she said.
- Charlie Weston
Irish Independent
 
reason to give up your tracker

Hi Deelrover
I am in that situation. We have a tracker at ESB plus 0.51% at the moment, but have a second child on the way and feel that we need to move house to get more space. I changed job last year and improving my commute would also be a consideration. But the thought of losing our tracker is a major factor in putting off the move.

I had thought that my existing mortgage lender might be willing to offer a good variable rate on the next mortgage if I tried to negotiate on the basis that we would be giving up the tracker, but perhaps that doesn't make sense if the tracker will be paid off at the lower rate anyway if the house is sold?

Would we be crackers to give up our tracker?

C
 
Carmel, Same issue's as you have with growing family. Mortgage with UB,thye were only too happy when I went in to them about moving house and having to re apply for a new mortgage. Only variable and fixed rate mortgage offers so even though the cost of upsizing was only 50K we decided against it for the while due to the loss of the tracker mortgage.
 
I think this is pretty much a re-hash of what has already been said int his thread.
[broken link removed]


Just to note that the advice given in this link comes from the Irish Brokers Association. Whilst it's correct to say that the offer from Halifax/BOS is a terrible, self serving low ball offer the advice from the IBA isn't much better.

Some of the mortgage brokers on the site may correct me but it's my understanding that if a mortage brokered by a member of the IBA is paid off early / switched, then the commission paid out to that broker is redeemed. In many the commission is paid out in instalements after a number of years, and again switching nullifies these payments.

So what are the IBA doing here by saying you should be looking for 25% of your outstanding mortage as an incentive to switch? Well, in my opinion, they may be setting people's expectations way way too high so that they do not lose their commission.

A friend of mine came in to some money at the start of the year. She has a tracker of ECB +.65% on a mortgage of around 200K. She was going to pay off the mortgage (deposit held in different bank). I advised then to wait till the end of the year when I reckoned she'd get 10-15K off the principle. Advising someone they'd get 25% (50K) off that amount just isn't realistic and I'd question the motivation of anyone giving this advice.
 
the article mentions 25% "to make it worth their while".

that advice stands as good!
 
the article mentions 25% "to make it worth their while".

that advice stands as good!
Well here's how I make my calculation.

The average life of a mortage is 7 years. After that you switch / move / release equity to build an extension, all of which would be used to end the tracker.

Most of these loss making trackers were given out in 05-07. Suggesting an average of 3.5 years remaining.

If you move to a variable you'll, on average, pay 2% extra in interest.

2 x 3.5 = 7% of your outstanding principle (15K from 200K).

Banks will make a similar calculation to this when deciding what to offer you to break your tracker. It'll be the exact same formula they used when calculating breakage fees for those who wanted to go from a Fixed to Variable.

25% is not realistic and no underwiter / actuary would agree to it. I'm calling shenanigans on the IBA advice.
 

There is usually a 3 year clawback.
In reality BOSI have not been lending for the past 2 years so most of their mortgage book will be 2+ years old.
If your mortgage is less than 3 years old, there is a high probability of negative equity so you may not be able to switch in any case.
All of these factors would make the effect of commission clawback on brokers negligible.

The 25% is a soundbite from the IBA and it looks like it has worked. They will be delighted to get this coverage.

www.moneybackmortgages.ie
 
there is not one person reading this thread or even interested in this topic with 7 years left!

there home free in my book! let's keep this relevant to the people who bought in 2000-2008!
 
there is not one person reading this thread or even interested in this topic with 7 years left!

there home free in my book! let's keep this relevant to the people who bought in 2000-2008!
You have mis-read my post. Statistically mortages only last 7 years before they get churned.
 
You have mis-read my post. Statistically mortages only last 7 years before they get churned.

My apologies. I think we can safely say that in the future that figure will be revised up either due to an inabilty from the bank to let you break from the tracker ie no new mortgage approval for bigger house/ top up or your relucentence to allow youself to give up the tracker.

My guess is that the buyout option will only come after the ltv mortgage holders are hung out to dry by the banks on their rising ltv rates when the market bottoms next year.
 
Herald article 4 May with IBA comments and others

[broken link removed]
 
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QUestion.

I'm on an AIB ECB + .6% Tracker.
I wrote to the bank in May 2007 to instruct them to move me to that <50%LTV rate when my 1yr fixed rate finished a week or so later. I then received a simple letter from the bank a week later stating what my new repayment schedule would be and I have been on that tracker rate ever since. I did not receive any T&C document or official notification that I was on that tracker in the post. However they obviously received my written instruction to put me on that rate at the time and acted upon it and so I still have the tracker. I am extremely fortunate to still qualify for the <50% LTV status so that is not an option for the bank.
Is this lack of a T&C document a good or bad thing for me?
 
I would not rule out NIB stating there is now a material change as we have not received your confirmed policies: welcome to your new variable product
Yes - they were writing to mortgage holders re. insurance details. Just wondering if this was selective ie. just tracker customers??
 
We received one of those letter re. Ins details from NIB and yes, we have a tracker mortgage with them.
 
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