4% on top rate of tax or water charges?

[Duke of Marmalade]

Henda has very cleverly set out the battle lines with his suggestion that the alternative to water charges would be 4% on the top rate of tax. He could have chosen the standard rate of tax. The figure would be much smaller, of course (1%?), but more importantly there would be a resounding "yes please" from the populace.

Instead the "yes please" will come from many of yesterday's marchers and certainly from the looney tunes whipping them up. But the traditional FG constituency will say "hold on a minute". Yet many of these have probably joined in the Irish Water bashing orgy that has gripped the citizenry. What Henda is saying to his FG clan is "stop whinging or you might get what you wish for".

This threatens to make the whole water charges issue very divisive along class lines.

 

[Ceist Beag]

I think the main reason so many have joined the Irish Water bashing is because of the waste of money on Irish Water itself. I don't personally believe that so many people are against the idea of paying for water if they can believe that the ultimate aim is to both conserve water and fix the poor state of the pipes. However so much money is being wasted on Irish Water running costs and there seems very little encouragement to actually conserve water usage that I think most believe (quite possibly correctly) that this is just another quango to keep public servants in jobs whilst appeasing the troika at the same time.
As you say Duke, it may well boil down to a choice of either a charge that everyone pays or one that the top rate of tax payers only pay. One point that was well made I felt by a punter at the protests - if water conservation was not the real agenda here (and it certainly doesn't appear to be) then why could they not have simply paid for water out of the USC? There wasn't the same reaction to the USC which is quite strange when you think about it as it's a much cruder way of taking money from the people!

 

[Delboy]

There wasn't the same reaction to the USC which is quite strange when you think about it as it's a much cruder way of taking money from the people!

My guess would be that a lot of the Water protestors don't pay USC, hence they weren't out on the streets when it was first introduced!!!

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

One point that was well made I felt by a punter at the protests - if water conservation was not the real agenda here (and it certainly doesn't appear to be) then why could they not have simply paid for water out of the USC?

S/he was most likely talking about the other guy's USC USC is a darling of the left. Even if it was at a level rate it would be progressive (higher incomes pay more) but with its sharply ascending scales it is super progressive. The left wants even more, another 3% on incomes over 100K. Either that and/or a wealth tax.

It is true to say that the water charges are regressive (not necessarily a bad thing despite the pejorative nature of the word). All the other big austerity measures (USC, LPT eg) were progressive.

 

[Sunny]

USC a darling of the left??? It's a darling of Government of all sides because it allows them to tweak tax rates for different cohorts a lot easier than messing with tax rates themselves.

As for the condescending comments above about protestors probably not paying USC, it must be great to live high up your ivory towers. Every protest attracts loopers and loonies but that doesn't mean everyone who attended those protests in horrible weather were all the same. I know people who protested because they didn't want to pay for water. I know people who protested because of the setting up of Irish water. I know people who protested because they can't afford to pay for so called 'free' third level education and full adult rate water charges for their children in full time education. I know people who protested because they are just sick and tired of the current government. Unless the Political parties in this Country wake up and start listening, we are heading towards a political system that will rival Italy for absurdity. Of course it is a lot easier to make sweeping generalisations about people protesting on this issue as a bunch of left wing, useless, lazy idiots.

I didn't protest but I applaud the people who did if they felt strongly about it. As far as I am concerned, the raid of my pension fund was outright theft by this Governmemt. And yet all I do is moan about it on sites like this. Same as the majority of people who like to say they don't protest because they understand the economic situation when really they are too lazy and don't know what it is like to struggle in a household.

By all means ridicule all the people who marched if you like but I say fair play to them. I have no problem with water charges but I do have a problem with Irish water. Unlike me, these people could be bothered to try and do something about it though.

 

[Delboy]

As for the condescending comments above about protestors probably not paying USC, it must be great to live high up your ivory towers. Every protest attracts loopers and loonies but that doesn't mean everyone who attended those protests in horrible weather were all the same.

Thats why I said 'a lot'...not 'all'.

I saw banners on the news from the Dublin protest that related to 'The Land League: No to Evictions', so yes there are lots of loopers there. But not everyone and some, no doubt, marched for ideological reasons or against the quango that is Uisce Eireann.

There is a large cohort in this country who get a lot of freebies from the taxpayer. Free housing, welfare, allowances etc etc....so a project likes Irish Water that requires everyone to pay something, doesn't go down well with that cohort. And people like Richard Boyd Barrett, Paul Murphy and Claire Daly as well as orgs like the Unions, act as ringmasters and get the protestors out for their own political ends.

If the allowance was large enough to cover the entire water bill for those on welfare, how many would be out protesting the past few weeks?

 

[cork]

Henda has very cleverly set out the battle lines with his suggestion that the alternative to water charges would be 4% on the top rate of tax.

For an Ex Teacher - he is not great at basic maths.

Cheap scare mongering on the issue.

 

[Firefly]

I think what is interesting in all of this is that we now have a (somewhat) transparent cost of a public utility expressed as a percentage of income tax (albeit at the higher level). Imagine if this was turned on its head...imagine if we knew that, say, by dissolving half of the quangos out there, we could each have our income tax reduced by 4%. Wouldn't that be something to be debated?!!!

 

[Ceist Beag]

USC a darling of the left??? It's a darling of Government of all sides because it allows them to tweak tax rates for different cohorts a lot easier than messing with tax rates themselves.

As for the condescending comments above about protestors probably not paying USC, it must be great to live high up your ivory towers. Every protest attracts loopers and loonies but that doesn't mean everyone who attended those protests in horrible weather were all the same. I know people who protested because they didn't want to pay for water. I know people who protested because of the setting up of Irish water. I know people who protested because they can't afford to pay for so called 'free' third level education and full adult rate water charges for their children in full time education. I know people who protested because they are just sick and tired of the current government. Unless the Political parties in this Country wake up and start listening, we are heading towards a political system that will rival Italy for absurdity. Of course it is a lot easier to make sweeping generalisations about people protesting on this issue as a bunch of left wing, useless, lazy idiots.

I didn't protest but I applaud the people who did if they felt strongly about it. As far as I am concerned, the raid of my pension fund was outright theft by this Governmemt. And yet all I do is moan about it on sites like this. Same as the majority of people who like to say they don't protest because they understand the economic situation when really they are too lazy and don't know what it is like to struggle in a household.

By all means ridicule all the people who marched if you like but I say fair play to them. I have no problem with water charges but I do have a problem with Irish water. Unlike me, these people could be bothered to try and do something about it though.

Sunny I've got to say, once again you've caught my own feelings on the matter perfectly. If only we could find someone who could represent these feelings and be motivated enough to really go and do something about it eh! I was really impressed with the protests at the weekend simply because they did not appear to be the cohort of any one group (left wing or other) and appeared for the most part to be ordinary citizens who genuinely have had enough and felt strongly enough to make their voices heard in a peaceful manner.
Even though I actually agree with the concept of water charges I would seriously consider getting off my backside should there be further protests just so I can join the chorus demanding changes the current proposal.

 

[Purple]

Even though I actually agree with the concept of water charges I would seriously consider getting off my backside should there be further protests just so I can join the chorus demanding changes the current proposal.

Why have so few people make noise about what the structure of Irish Water really tells us; it is in no way unusual. This is the way public bodies, semi-state's and the so-called "commercial" semi-states have been organised and run for years.
The delivery of services in this country is, almost without exception, inefficient and very expensive. That in no way means that the people delivering those services do not work as hard as the rest of us but the structures are not fit for purpose.

 

[Sunny]

Why have so few people make noise about what the structure of Irish Water really tells us; it is in no way unusual. This is the way public bodies, semi-state's and the so-called "commercial" semi-states have been organised and run for years.
The delivery of services in this country is, almost without exception, inefficient and very expensive. That in no way means that the people delivering those services do not work as hard as the rest of us but the structures are not fit for purpose.

Well people are making noise. People have been making noise for years but no one ever listened. Instead we now have a situation where people are ridiculed for protesting. Maybe the rest of us so should take a leaf out of their book. I am sick of a 52% tax rate. I am sick of rising health insurance premiums. I am sick of increases in the cost of public transport that are a multiple of inflation. I am sick of being barely able to afford child care to the extent that it is cheaper for my wife to stay at home. I am sick of politicians still bleeding the system dry and treating the responsibility of governing as a game. I am sick of people never having worked a day in their lives getting things handed to them but when I was made redundant and out of work for 8 months, I was treated like a scrounger. I am sick of having my pension robbed to pay for a bloody vat decrease for hotels that have decided to bleed people that attend this weeks web summit dry with dingy crap holes charging €600 per night. I am sick of Enda Kenny and his inability to do an interview because he knows he is a bumbling idiot. I am sick of self employed people having to pay more tax just because they are self employed.


Maybe instead of ridiculing the so called lower class for their inability to see the bigger economic picture, people like us who probably all have good jobs and are comfortable why we aren't protesting. Says more about us I think.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Sunny that's a heck of a lotta steam belying your moniker No one is belittling the marchers but let's get real, they seem to all accept that water ain't free, its all about who pays for it, so let's not ascribe some nobler motives to the protests.

 

[110quests]

Ten people I know from my locality went to the water march. These 10 are law abiding tax paying citizens, employed, but annoyed. Some are annoyed because they say they pay for the provision of water services, others annoyed at the structure of IW with its overload of employees, others annoyed at the Enda Kenny led government who smugly infer its a small contribution etc.

I think we need something like a Primetime special to clarify the entire process. Spell out the Government's role and reason for setting it up , spell out the finances currently being spent on water/sewerage provision, explain the reason for keeping the proposed expenditure off the current balance sheets, spell out the structure of IW....how many employees directly recruited as IW workers and how many seconded from Co Cos and what their role and working conditions are. Are they IW employees now

Spell out the cost per individual, per house, per age group for usage. Clarify the cost of fixes for leaks and for sewerage repair costs.

Spell out IW's proposed schedule of works: what and where are the upgrades proposed this year next year etc. How many kilometers of old leaking piping are to be replaced each year. Is there such a plan at all ? Are former Co Co staff contributing to the knowledge bank needed or are recently recruited 'new' engineers tasked with figuring out the dynamics.

Comparing water with electricity or gas provision is actually silly, water falling freely from the sky. Electricity is manufactured, gas extracted both expensive processes. Yes water needs treatment and distribution but the product is free. And there is lots of it.

Dublin will need water from the Shannon ,they tell us, but if every new tech company wasn't centered in the city and instead a tech hub set up in Athlone then the costly transportation to the city need not be necessary.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Why have so few people make noise about what the structure of Irish Water really tells us; it is in no way unusual. This is the way public bodies, semi-state's and the so-called "commercial" semi-states have been organised and run for years.

The delivery of services in this country is, almost without exception, inefficient and very expensive. That in no way means that the people delivering those services do not work as hard as the rest of us but the structures are not fit for purpose.

Purple, I think you make an excellent and very important point, which may be lost here. Indeed I hope you will start a thread about this.

People cannot work efficiently within semi-state structures from hell - not just Irish Water. Everyone suffers, from employees to customers.

 

[Leper]

Thats why I said 'a lot'...not 'all'.

I saw banners on the news from the Dublin protest that related to 'The Land League: No to Evictions', so yes there are lots of loopers there. But not everyone and some, no doubt, marched for ideological reasons or against the quango that is Uisce Eireann.

There is a large cohort in this country who get a lot of freebies from the taxpayer. Free housing, welfare, allowances etc etc....so a project likes Irish Water that requires everyone to pay something, doesn't go down well with that cohort. And people like Richard Boyd Barrett, Paul Murphy and Claire Daly as well as orgs like the Unions, act as ringmasters and get the protestors out for their own political ends.

If the allowance was large enough to cover the entire water bill for those on welfare, how many would be out protesting the past few weeks?

Smug post of the month award, hands down! I protested last Saturday against Uisce Eireann. There were some Rent-a-Crowd in the protest. However, the vast majority were people like myself sick and tired of the Quango climate fostered by this and previous governments. All around me were people who never protested against anything before e.g. Pensioners, Housewives, Civil Servants, Self-Employed, good-living people.

The government (especially Mr Kenny) would want to get the message and fast. People are fed up (gross understatement) with financing lame ducks. The trades unions have been bought off (ask any civil servant re the unions non-stance on the Haddington Road Agreement and wait for it no matter what people think the 'agreement' will be extended).

So it is unfair for some on here to hammer away at genuine protesters. We can all stay at home watching telly wearing overcoats inside to keep warm and feed our children on crisps etc. But, if people do not take to the street the government will ride slip-shod over us. But, it is easier to watch television, do nothing and let others do your fighting.

 

[Delboy]

Smug post of the month award, hands down! I protested last Saturday against Uisce Eireann. There were some Rent-a-Crowd in the protest. However, the vast majority were people like myself sick and tired of the Quango climate fostered by this and previous governments. All around me were people who never protested against anything before e.g. Pensioners, Housewives, Civil Servants, Self-Employed, good-living people.

The government (especially Mr Kenny) would want to get the message and fast. People are fed up (gross understatement) with financing lame ducks. The trades unions have been bought off (ask any civil servant re the unions non-stance on the Haddington Road Agreement and wait for it no matter what people think the 'agreement' will be extended).

So it is unfair for some on here to hammer away at genuine protesters. We can all stay at home watching telly wearing overcoats inside to keep warm and feed our children on crisps etc. But, if people do not take to the street the government will ride slip-shod over us. But, it is easier to watch television, do nothing and let others do your fighting.

You make my point very well for me...you weren't protesting about Water per say, but about Quangos in general plus the fact that after 6 tears of austerity, you have had enough. And thats fair enough.

I've no issues watching the protests on from my couch, as I don't mind paying directly for my water usage. And I think all others should also. It's the main way to conserve water and cut out the reckless use/identify and repair the leaks.
A lot of people down the country have being paying for water for years...my own home in the West, we've been paying as part of a local water scheme for over 30 years.
And don't say the Union's aren't involved....IMPACT are all over this, whilst it seems just SIPTU (who are so close to Labour these days, they may as well merge) have stayed away.

I do however object to water continuing to be paid from general taxation because IMO, that'll fall on the shoulders of the minority in this country who pay for everything already and who pay for everyone else!

Nothing smug at all about my post.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Let's get things in proportion here. Less than 3% of the pop came out in protest. The overwhelming mantra I gleaned (smugly watching on my flat screen) was "won't pay" (not "can't pay") with Mary Kangaroo McDonald leading the charge.

Of course it is not illegal to not buy something. Nobody is forced to buy food for example. Somehow I think they meant that through moral blackmail they would still get their water, simply that they wouldn't pay for it. In my simple book that's "stealing" but then are we surprised that this would not faze the likes of MKM

 

[cork]

The overwhelming mantra I gleaned (smugly watching on my flat screen) was "won't pay" (not "can't pay") with Mary Kangaroo McDonald leading the charge.

If we are having comsumption taxes - it is time to start cutting taxes.

 

[TRS30]

Well people are making noise. People have been making noise for years but no one ever listened. Instead we now have a situation where people are ridiculed for protesting. Maybe the rest of us so should take a leaf out of their book. I am sick of a 52% tax rate. I am sick of rising health insurance premiums. I am sick of increases in the cost of public transport that are a multiple of inflation. I am sick of being barely able to afford child care to the extent that it is cheaper for my wife to stay at home. I am sick of politicians still bleeding the system dry and treating the responsibility of governing as a game. I am sick of people never having worked a day in their lives getting things handed to them but when I was made redundant and out of work for 8 months, I was treated like a scrounger. I am sick of having my pension robbed to pay for a bloody vat decrease for hotels that have decided to bleed people that attend this weeks web summit dry with dingy crap holes charging €600 per night. I am sick of Enda Kenny and his inability to do an interview because he knows he is a bumbling idiot. I am sick of self employed people having to pay more tax just because they are self employed.

Your rant has made me feel better as these are most of the things that get under my skin as well. Especially that our leader is too scared to answer any serious/probing questions.

 

[NOAH]

this if from the FG website
What are Fine Gael’s major policy platforms?
To get Ireland working, through policies that encourage job creation.
To free Ireland from the bailout, by enabling re-entry to the money markets to ensure it is no longer reliant on funds from the Troika.
To deliver smaller, better government.
To create a completely new, fairer, more efficient health system that provides for the needs of all.
To overhaul the way Ireland’s political system works to deliver a modern, effective, political system that works and services the people.

I cant find their manifesto, ie it has been removed!! I wonder why.