Insulated Concrete Form (ICF)
- Thread starter gr000
- Start date
- Status
Z
z102
Guest
To Polo:Why do you want to use this method? Have you ever worked on a site? No professional builder is using it, neither here nor abroad......
IMHO it's a method for amateurs stucked in their anal phase if I might use this Freudian term.
IMHO it's a method for amateurs stucked in their anal phase if I might use this Freudian term.
why do you say that heinbloed?....even though ICF is not in Ireland to a significant degree but it is significant abroad.
Do you believe there to be a problem with the system or is it more to do with 'people jumping on a new thing' is what has spured your post.
I ask this not in an attacking manner....more so on trying to understand your logic. You have posted some particularly great posts regarding heating systems & insulation etc which I find particularly of great interest.
ninsaga
Z
z102
Guest
These forms are not used by professionals who want/need to make money. Because these EPS forms are uneconomic to use. Squaremeters are wanted, many of them, every day. This makes a wall building system economicall.
These EPS forms bulge when filled and compacted (!) with liquid cencrete, try it, any container will bulge when filled with a liquid. Even the manufacturers state so, only a certain height can be worked, then the concrete has to be compacted and left to set. Depending on the type of concrete this would be 1 or two weeks until the full load bearing capacity for the ceiling or the next floor/wall/roof can be applied.
The small,batchwise demand of concrete makes the entire building process uneconomical, small loads of readymix cost big money. Not only the load has to arrive, but the men have to be there and the scaffolding has to be there and the pump has to be there. Instead of casting the entire wall in one go it goes bit for bit, with days/weeks in between.
If some tells you you can cast another load of concrete on a fresh one that yust seems to be hard after a day or two without waiting the min. time -sack him, he's a cowboy without a clue about cement works. Concrete hardens for two years, b.t.w., then it deterioates. But don't be afraid, it'll take ages before it crumbles.
Next point:The entire wall can't be prebuild and then filled bit by bit, left standing unfilled for days. One strong blow of wind it will fly all over the place. If it crashes into a windscreen you could be done, financialwise. No insurance would cover such a careless site, such a company in this case.
Next point: if these boxes get demaged they're useless. That means plenty of waste on a tough, prolonged site. And the material has to be reordered, concrete deliveries rearanged, staff send home and rehired for some other day.
Next point. If it rains heavily when the casting should be done-forget it. Dismantel the few rows, lay heavy objects on the boxes and wait for better weather.This is not unusuall when casting concrete-so do it quick in one batch if possible and not in several steps, to stay economic.
Next point: these boxes can get cracked when errected. That means they could burst whilest casting the liquid concrete. Forget the day: shovel the useless,wasted concrete out of the way(where to?) and start again.If you still have enough boxes.
Next point:Bulging does occour, even when done correctly, in small degrees. Everyone who has ever casted concrete will tell you that.Laws of physics. That means you need more plaster, more material, more manhours to get a straight wall.
Next point:Concrete contains water.A lot of water.This has to dry out fully before one can live in a casted structure. Covered with EPS all around(and plastered already?) the drying process can take a year, even longer, depending on the thickness and the site conditions.
Next point: Concrete has a very good heatstorage capacity. Which is useless for the inhabitant when using these boxes as a wall system. Since the concrete is insulated at the inside of the room.
Next point: The U-Value of such a wall is a CALCULATED one, based on assumed average thicknesses of the wall materials. Assumed means that these U-values are not real, they're based on calculations. A meassuring of the U-value of such a wall would deliver a lower value then the calculated value. Since the wall isn't innert, binders are used to keep the pieces/sheets of these boxes together (the same problem is to be seen on the Irish standard double/cavity wall). The binders-or even worse:entire EPS sheets like in a real box with four walls- will give uneven k-values, a wall made of many,many hot and cold spots.Instead of an even structure with no hot and cold spots.
IMHO: this method is something for someone who needs to show him/herself something done by him/herself. Without regard to quality or economics. Playing with muck.
Therefore my reference to Freud in my previous post, no insult.
These EPS forms bulge when filled and compacted (!) with liquid cencrete, try it, any container will bulge when filled with a liquid. Even the manufacturers state so, only a certain height can be worked, then the concrete has to be compacted and left to set. Depending on the type of concrete this would be 1 or two weeks until the full load bearing capacity for the ceiling or the next floor/wall/roof can be applied.
The small,batchwise demand of concrete makes the entire building process uneconomical, small loads of readymix cost big money. Not only the load has to arrive, but the men have to be there and the scaffolding has to be there and the pump has to be there. Instead of casting the entire wall in one go it goes bit for bit, with days/weeks in between.
If some tells you you can cast another load of concrete on a fresh one that yust seems to be hard after a day or two without waiting the min. time -sack him, he's a cowboy without a clue about cement works. Concrete hardens for two years, b.t.w., then it deterioates. But don't be afraid, it'll take ages before it crumbles.
Next point:The entire wall can't be prebuild and then filled bit by bit, left standing unfilled for days. One strong blow of wind it will fly all over the place. If it crashes into a windscreen you could be done, financialwise. No insurance would cover such a careless site, such a company in this case.
Next point: if these boxes get demaged they're useless. That means plenty of waste on a tough, prolonged site. And the material has to be reordered, concrete deliveries rearanged, staff send home and rehired for some other day.
Next point. If it rains heavily when the casting should be done-forget it. Dismantel the few rows, lay heavy objects on the boxes and wait for better weather.This is not unusuall when casting concrete-so do it quick in one batch if possible and not in several steps, to stay economic.
Next point: these boxes can get cracked when errected. That means they could burst whilest casting the liquid concrete. Forget the day: shovel the useless,wasted concrete out of the way(where to?) and start again.If you still have enough boxes.
Next point:Bulging does occour, even when done correctly, in small degrees. Everyone who has ever casted concrete will tell you that.Laws of physics. That means you need more plaster, more material, more manhours to get a straight wall.
Next point:Concrete contains water.A lot of water.This has to dry out fully before one can live in a casted structure. Covered with EPS all around(and plastered already?) the drying process can take a year, even longer, depending on the thickness and the site conditions.
Next point: Concrete has a very good heatstorage capacity. Which is useless for the inhabitant when using these boxes as a wall system. Since the concrete is insulated at the inside of the room.
Next point: The U-Value of such a wall is a CALCULATED one, based on assumed average thicknesses of the wall materials. Assumed means that these U-values are not real, they're based on calculations. A meassuring of the U-value of such a wall would deliver a lower value then the calculated value. Since the wall isn't innert, binders are used to keep the pieces/sheets of these boxes together (the same problem is to be seen on the Irish standard double/cavity wall). The binders-or even worse:entire EPS sheets like in a real box with four walls- will give uneven k-values, a wall made of many,many hot and cold spots.Instead of an even structure with no hot and cold spots.
IMHO: this method is something for someone who needs to show him/herself something done by him/herself. Without regard to quality or economics. Playing with muck.
Therefore my reference to Freud in my previous post, no insult.
Heinbloed this is specifically to you.
Please read posts before replying to them as you have a tendency to go off on tangents and rant on about your personal opinions. (BTW, when I say rant I really mean RANT)
Just a bit of useful information about your posts:
MAKE A POINT then move onto your next point.
You don't get extra points for writing a post the size of an essay.
Spell checkers are a standard tool on all PCs.
Don't go off on tangents.
Don’t go off on tangents.
Don't be offensive in your posts.
My initial post was for information from people who have used this system… Not from someone who has an opinion about everything.
Also, You can't make those comments without backing it up with some substance (substance does not equal a 2,000 word post)
Please do not reply to my posts if your only going to add CRAP to it.
Please read posts before replying to them as you have a tendency to go off on tangents and rant on about your personal opinions. (BTW, when I say rant I really mean RANT)
Just a bit of useful information about your posts:
MAKE A POINT then move onto your next point.
You don't get extra points for writing a post the size of an essay.
Spell checkers are a standard tool on all PCs.
Don't go off on tangents.
Don’t go off on tangents.
Don't be offensive in your posts.
My initial post was for information from people who have used this system… Not from someone who has an opinion about everything.
Also, You can't make those comments without backing it up with some substance (substance does not equal a 2,000 word post)
Please do not reply to my posts if your only going to add CRAP to it.
L
lorna
Guest
gr000, my god, why are you attacking heinbloed? are you a sales rep for ICF building systems ? you take his comments so personally. i welcome all comments positive or negative.
we are thinking of building an ICF two storey house in longford and i find that heinbloed has really given me some more issues to think about before investing my hard earned money.
i'll finish now as i don't want to turn this reply into an essay!! please accept my aplogies if you find spelling mistakes! - this is so important on a messageboard!
we are thinking of building an ICF two storey house in longford and i find that heinbloed has really given me some more issues to think about before investing my hard earned money.
i'll finish now as i don't want to turn this reply into an essay!! please accept my aplogies if you find spelling mistakes! - this is so important on a messageboard!
In support of heinbloed, it was I who asked him for his comments. He has contributed to this board on many occasions with regard to insulation, heating systems etc ect... all which have been valuable ( & educational to me anyway!)
If you have information that does contradict his points then by all manner & means publish them. I would like to hear all sides of the argument.
Please refrain from attacks which will guarantee a removal of your post at a minimum... or even thread closure (and whats the good in that?)
ninsaga
If you have information that does contradict his points then by all manner & means publish them. I would like to hear all sides of the argument.
Please refrain from attacks which will guarantee a removal of your post at a minimum... or even thread closure (and whats the good in that?)
ninsaga
gr000,
You want to relax there a bit ( no a lot)
You came here looking for advice on the pros and cons on a product. You havent got any pros but Heinbold has given you a few cons. Maybe you would be better taking in what he has to say and responding point by point rather than lambasting him from a height. I would hate to think that he leave this site because of the abuse he gets from people like yourself.
Personally i enjoy his contributions and find them enlightening and educational. You may not agree with him but surely its your own perogative to accept or ignore whatever he says.
You want to relax there a bit ( no a lot)
You came here looking for advice on the pros and cons on a product. You havent got any pros but Heinbold has given you a few cons. Maybe you would be better taking in what he has to say and responding point by point rather than lambasting him from a height. I would hate to think that he leave this site because of the abuse he gets from people like yourself.
Personally i enjoy his contributions and find them enlightening and educational. You may not agree with him but surely its your own perogative to accept or ignore whatever he says.
- Status