BBC 1 Whistleblower - Estate Agents

That should make some interesting viewing! One can only hope that the Irish counterparts are not quite like that!
 
read that article: disgusted? yep. Surprised? Nope, though to be honest the fake passport thing was a little further than I thought these sewer rats would go.

We might lack the high pressure atmosphere in agencies here due to the booming market, but I've no doubt there's a similar level of under-handed behaviour going on.

Private property is a multi-billion euro business but yet, even with McDowell's new legislation, its not properly regulated so these conmen can just keep on doing what they're doing.
 
My boss congratulates me on getting an offer on a flat that has been overvalued by £60,000. The newly-wed young couple viewing the property are stretched to their financial limit. But my manager is happy.
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As, I imagine, was her client.

A property is only worth what the market will pay for it. The property in question is quite clearly not 'overvalued' - if it was, no one would buy it.

I'm sorry, but if people are willing to pay stupid prices, then on their own heads be it. The vendor wants the agent to squeeze every last penny out of the purchaser - would anyone on this board accept €60,000 less just so that a 'young family' could get on the first rung of the housing ladder? I think not.

I have no love for estate agents, believe me, and am disgusted by some of the other issues raised in the article linked above, such as allegedly taking bribes in order to convince the vendor to accept a lower price. However, there is nothing wrong with convincing some idiot to pay a stupid price for a property.

Also, her moaning about 'pressure' and long hours, such as 7pm meetings and 7.30am breakfast meetings, is a little precious if you ask me. Obviously nobody in the BBC has to work these hours, but they are actually a fact of life in many areas, not just selling houses. Perhaps she should leave her BBC cocoon and go undercover in the real world a little bit more?
 
Hey Sherman, I don't think anyone has any problem with an EA doing everything within the rules to get the best price for their client.

The problem is when they break the rules and use underhand behaviour like phantom bids to create an image that the market has set a certain value for a property, though the price is, in fact, artificial. I assume you don't condone this behaviour just like I assume you don't condone companies such as Enron lying about their accounts to improve their market value?
 
Hi OhPinchy, I agree with you to an extent - of course I don't agree with their behaviour, I was merely pointing out that nobody is forced to buy a property. To a large degree property prices are, and always have been, based on perception. If an EA 'pumps' a particular property, then if the purchaser percieves that the house is worth the price being sought, I have little problem with the EA's action.

There are many differences between Enron and EA's in general, not least that Enron's creative accounting was highly illegal. Secondly, Enron was only one company, and therefore it was far easier for those in control to manipulate the share price. Far harder to do so in a massively liquid market like the Irish housing market - unless every EA in the country is in collusion - but that's a whole other question!

Enron and property do share one thing in common - no one forced people to buy them.

Edited to add, when I was purchasing my house, I treated every EA as being frankly worse than everything alleged in the BBC article, and walked away from a fair few houses which I felt were overpriced.
 
Sherman, thats a ridiculous post - and totally out of line.

Sherman said:
If an EA 'pumps' a particular property, then if the purchaser percieves that the house is worth the price being sought, I have little problem with the EA's action.
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Wouldnt like to have you behind my back.......

Sherman said:
Enron and property do share one thing in common - no one forced people to buy them.
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What Enron and dodgy EA's have in common is fraud......and you are attempting to condone it
 
I watched the show earlier and thought it was very well put together. Unusually for a piece of 'investigative journalism' they actually produced a decent bit of evidence on their subject (not like some Dispatches show).

Eh, Sherman, I'm not going to go to the hassle of putting together loads of examples of how EAs artificially increase prices is analogous to various fraudulent practices in the financial industry as its clear your stance is if they can get away with it then whats wrong with it, but I will give one more example. Imagine if I could increase the share price of my company by telling the market I had sold X amount of shares at price Y, thereby convincing the market that the market value of my shares is Y. Nobody is forced to buy at price Y, but people would be basing their decision on an artificially inflated price. This is highly illegal for a good reason.

I'm pretty sure under the new legislation phantom bidding by EAs will be either illegal or enough to lose them their license, though the problem will be how they can enforce this.

I encountered some very dodgy EAs when buying but luckily for me I'm clued in enough to suss out the dodgy from the decent, and I told a good few EAs who were playing games with me where to stick it, but theres always people who will get suckered by the above tactics. Its not enough to say whoever is stupid enough to be suckered deserves its - just because there are people who will fall for fraud does not mean the fraud is acceptable or legal.

It amazes me how people make their judgements on these things based on how it works for them - 'I didn't get suckered so I've no sympathy for those that do', or 'My EA used dodgy practices to get me top price' - that greedy, selfish attitude disgusts me to be honest.

Meccano, if I'm right you were the victim of a dodgy EA/vendor combination recently so would you not be thinking that this show, and others that might follow in Ireland, are to be welcomed as they increase awareness of what EAs are getting away with (with increased awareness being the first step to getting proper legilsation)?
 
I watched this show yesterday, and I am really disappointed how low people can sink.
The problem with people being exploited is, that the honest amongst us go on to buy a house and expect to be treated fairly and honestly. Sure if I hadn't stumbled across this noticeboard, it wouldn't occur to me for one second that someone comes up with phantom-bids and other dodgy tactics to try and squeeze as much money out of me. I think that goes for the majority of people, and why do we always have to expect the worst when trading in any kind of way? We really should have more respect for each other!
 
Agree with Petal. Its all very well if you have knowledge of the housing market and the buying and selling process then you can feel confident that you know what you're doing. But particularily for first time buyers its a daunting process dealing with mortgage applications, how the whole process works etc.. you can only do so much homework. There's no course to teach you the tricks of the trade - unfortunately you sometimes end up learning by experience. I don't think people are stupid. i assumed that estate agents would try to get the best price for a property by advertising it well and getting as many people as possible interested. I think alot of people would assume they are regulated in some way and have some kindof code of practice. Sellers especially would believe the estate agent is acting in their best interest. People don't go round expecting to be exploited in the way some were in the programme. How are you supposed to know you are being deceived?
 
Agree with OhPinchy. Ordinarily I'd say buyer beware and if someone is willing to pay a price then that is market value but if the EA is actively forging the market history so a surveyor can tell a lender to ok an amount that they would not otherwise green light then that is wrong.

I was apalled for the duration of the show not just at what they were doing but at how easy it is for them to do it.

I'd imagine the developer swizz is rife in probate cases where the seller is not always too aware of or concerned about the real value of the home being sold.
 
WOW - sounds like an excellent program which really exposed some of the gangsters in this trade. Wonder is there any chance of it being repeated?

Roy
 
Two comments:

1. As regards "phantom bids", it is actually perfectly legal in an auction situation for the seller (or his agent) to bid on the property up to the reserve price. Once the property is declared "on the market" such a bid would be fraudulent, but not before.

2. Regarding the comment that ".. there is nothing wrong with convincing some idiot to pay a stupid price for a property." I agree BUT there is something seriously wrong with misappropriating supposedly confidential information about a buyer's purchasing power - i.e. mortgage broker division giving info to auctioneering division. This is completely illegal and, as the programme showed, rife.
 
Is it possible to find out here what other houses in an area sold for ? (the actual sale price rather than what it was advertised at). I think in the U.S. it's public record so a potential buyer can do their own research and see what similar houses on the same street etc were sold for. I think that info is also easily accessible more to the point as there's websites that can be used . I think that would help prevent the situation of estate agents over inflating prices as the info would be solid.
 
dubinamerica said:
Is it possible to find out here what other houses in an area sold for ? (the actual sale price rather than what it was advertised at).
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Out of idle curiosity (nosiness? :D) and as an 'experiment', my wife recently contacted one of the main EAs in Limerick to enquire as to the final selling price of a house four doors down from our own. She gave a made-up name and contact no. and said that she was actively looking for a property in the area — specifically the small cul de sac estate in question — and was given an exact figure.

A few weeks later, I happened to bump into the former neighbour and, in the course of the conversation, he told me they'd sold — for a significantly lower sum. Presumably the guy wasn't 'bragging downwards', which leads me to conclude that the EA was telling big fat pork pies...

I didn't see the BBC programme but, to be honest, I don't think any of the sharp practices uncovered would have been a revelation to me. These guys — with dismally few exceptions — are on a par with the 'Find the Lady' card-trick merchants!
 
I was expecting a programme showing 'phantom bids' being given by the EA's to bump up the price of a property on sale to potential buyers.

I was amazed to see that the fraud extended to vendors, landlords and tenants as well.

At the same time, I was thinking 'I've lived in London for a number of years and there are loads of 'wide boys' there who'll do anything for a quid'.

We were ripped off by an EA in London who was part of a city wide chain. I wish now, in hindsight, that I had taken the matter further and reported the fraud. I'm a lot older, unfortunately, and wiser than I was back then so hopefully it'll never happen again.
 
brian.mobile said:
I though the show was good. But the super sleuth reporters seemed under experienced and shaky.

BM
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Yes my thoughts exactly, thought it was a bit hyped and they were trying to add a bit of an edge.

As this forum has shown, it is easy to catch out an errant agent by posing as a prospective buyer
 
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