architect fees

Have spoken to a number of architects over the last few days about an extension and I am amazed at the variation in the fees they charge. Two were quoting 12% plus Vat, another 9% & Vat to two who where a fixed one charging cost 1950 (incl Vat) for plans, submissions, specifications and then 2100 for suprevised certification of completion incl. site visits and the other 2000 (incl Vat) for plans etc and then 150 a site visit and 350 for cert of compliance.

Not being that well informed about the pro's/cons of each, for a large residential extension - conversion of garage and build over and two story rear extension, should we go for the safer offer of the % as they maybe providing more services i.e in terms of tendering/build specifications or have people gone with fixed price architect's and if so what did they not cover, what areas to be wary of and what services should you expect from them.

What I dont want is someone to do the drawings, planning etc. and then have to find an engineer to provide build specifications to a builder, but can't see how it justifies a % of build cost, surely the work for this extension is fairly independent on what we pay for it which probably is a factor of fittings, cost of kitchen etc.

Any views ?

p.s. it is a 1950's house which also needs some modernisation (Electrics, Replace the Central Heating/Rads, Dry lining, surface cracks, attic insulation etc.)

I don't like the idea of a % fee, as that incentivises the architect to bump up the overall project costs.

Cloughy,

Are all the 'architects' you have approached members of the Royal Institute of Irish Architects (www.riai.ie)? A professionally qualified architect generally operate on a percentage basis and you can expect the following services to be part of your contract (not all services are relevant to a house extension or new build):

RIAI WORK STAGES:
[FROM 'AGREEMENT BETWEEN CLIENT AND ARCHITECT FOR THE PROVISION OF ARCHITECTURAL SERVICES (2002 EDITION)']

STAGE 1:
INCEPTION AND GENERAL SERVICES
SERVICES
- Take Client's instructions.
- Obtain information about the site from the Client.
- Visit the site and carry out an initial appraisal.
- Provide general advice on the need to obtain Planning Permission, comply with Building Regulations and with other statutory requirements.

STAGE 2:
OUTLINE PROPOSALS
SERVICES
- Take Client's instructions.
- Analyse the Client's requirements; prepare outline proposal on Client's further instructions.
- Provide information to discuss proposals with and incorporate input of other consultants (where appropriate).
- Provide information to other consultants for the preparation of an approximation of construction cost (where appropriate).
- Prepare an approximation of construction costs.

STAGE 3:
SCHEME DESIGN
SERVICES
- Take Client's instructions.
- Develop scheme design from approved outline proposals, on Client's further instructions indicating Architect's interpretation of Client's instructions but not in detail adequate to enable quantities to be prepared or tenders obtained.
- Provide information to other consultants for their preparation of cost estimate (where applicable).
- Prepare preliminary timetable for construction.
- Consult with Planning Authorities.
- Consult with Fire Authority.
- Consult with Environmental Authorities.
- Prepare an application for Planning Permission.

STAGE 4:
DETAIL DESIGN/ BUILDING REGULATIONS
SERVICES
- Take Client's instructions.
- Develop detail design from approved scheme design, on Client's further instructions.
- Consult with Building Control Authority.
- Provide information to, discuss proposals with, and incorporate input of other consultants into detail design (where appropriate).
- Provide information to other consultants for their preparation of cost estimate (where appropriate).
- Prepare documentation to indicate general compliance of design with Building Regulations and other statutory requirements.
- Prepare and lodge Fire Safety Certificate Application.

STAGE 5:
PRODUCTION INFORMATION
SERVICES
- Take Client's instructions.
- Prepare production information drawings from approved detail design on Client's further instructions.
- Prepare Specification.
- Provide information for the preparation of bills of quantity and/ or schedule of works (where appropriate).
(a) Prepare schedule of works for tender purposes (where appropriate).
- Prepare further documentation to show compliance of design with Building Regulations and other statutory requirements.
- Provide information to discuss proposals with and incorporate input of other consultants into production information (where appropriate).
- Co-ordinate production information.
- Provide information to other consultants for their revision of cost estimate (where appropriate).
- Review timetable for construction.

STAGE 6:
TENDER ACTION
SERVICES
- Take Client's instructions.
- Advise on and obtain the Client's approval to a list of tenderers for the building contract.
- Invite tenders.
- Appraise and report on tenders with other consultants.
- Report on tenders to Client.
- Negotiate a price with a Contractor.

STAGE 7:
PROJECT PLANNING
SERVICES
- Take Client's instructions.
- Advise Cleint on the appointment of the Contractor and on the responsibilities of the parties and the Architect under the building contract.
- Prepare the building contract and arrange for it to be signed.
- Monitor production of Bonds and Collateral agreements.

STAGE 8:
OPERATIONS ON SITE AND COMPLETION
SERVICES
- Take Client's instructions.
- Administer the terms of the building contract.
- Conduct meetings with the contractor to review progress.
- Provide production information as required by the building contract.
- Provide information to other consultants for the preparation of financial reports to the Client (where appropriate).
- At periodic intervals appropriate to the stage of construction visit the works to inspect the progress and quality of the works and to determine that they are being executed generally in accordance with the contract documents.
- Provide Architects Opinion on Compliance with Planning Permission and Building Regulations in respect of the completed building.

likewise I don't like the idaea of % fees, but want to ensure that the fixed fees cover all stages and no unexpected fees crop up if they require consultation with Engineers etc.

should we look at an architect or could an engineer perform a similar role, we have an idea of what we want, have sample drawings from a similar extension, so could an engineer work off this ?

Should we ask advice of builders who are viewing property to give indication of cost of the job, which we should be looking at for this project. What we want is someone to do plans, planning application, specification to give to builders for tendering process, will deal with builders queries, monitor progress and give the final sign off - which is better architect or engineer ?

I can understand your scepticism in relation to a % charge. However in my opinion, I don't think most qualified architects would try manipulate a process to increase the project cost in order to increase their own fee. Keeping a project within budget is both in the interest of the client and architect. If project tenders come in too high, the client may abandon the project completely and the architect would lose the business.

Tendering for a project with a number of builders is independant of the architect and should find the best value contract for the client.

An architect is trained to manage building projects and provide the services listed in my previous post (also check out 'working with your Architect': [broken link removed].

However, if you are involved in a small project (house extension etc.), an experienced engineer would probably be able to provide all the services you require.

Whoever you chose to appoint, you should seek references and evidence of previous projects completed before you make your final decision.

any recommendations of good engineers, I have received quotes of 170K for the extension, and the thought of paying 12/14% & VAT seems high when you do the calculations - nearly 30K, and I think the split of the fees would be 50% planning stage (15K), 25% Specifications/tendering (7.5K) and 25% work monitoring (7.5K). The build I am led to believe would be 3 months, so how many visits would the architect paid to the site for his 2.5k monitoring per month.

Surely these costs for a fairly regular extension seem excessive, so would we be better in getting an engineer to price the above, and any recommendations of good valued and competent people used in the past.

I note a previous post mentioning Eamon Weber - spoke to him and got his prices 1500/2000 for planning and for the monitoring and certification 150per visit and 350 for certs of completion/compliance. This sounds too good to be true, has anyone else used him for the complete job ?

Alternatively got a contact number for a Jeremy Kelly in Jezzar Design and Management in Leixlip - anyone heard/used them ?

Just got a quote from a friend who works for a firm of Architects - fixed price of 7K including VAT to include the following services:

1. Receipt of Client Brief.
2. Preparation and issue of Initial design sketches to client approval.
3. Preparation and lodgment of Planning Application.
4. Preparation and issue of Tender package (incl. all necessary general arrangement drawings and details and specification tender documents.
5. Preparation and issue of working details, necessary for the proper completion of the works in accordance with Building Regulations.
6. Weekly site meetings with Contractor to ensure works are carried out in accordance with the approved Planning and Building Regulation requirements.
7. Preparation and issue of minutes - records of site meetings.
8. All steel and concrete structural works to be approved by Structural Engineer.
9. All Mechanical and Electrical works to be approved by Services Consultant.
10. All additional works and supervision required to ensure works are properly carried out in accordance with the Planning and Building Regulation requirements.
11. Preparation and issue of:
    1. Certificates of Payment
    2. Practical Completion
    3. Final Certificate of Payment
    4. Certificate of Compliance

The agreed fixed fee to include for the Architectural, Structural Engineer and Services Consultant services outlined above.

I think this sounds a great price compared to other quotes, and seems to cover the job from start to finish, anything obvious missing from the above ? or should I sign the contract straight away.

The architect is well experienced with the following qualifications - Arch (Tech) Dip R.I.A.I. (Tech)

Just to clarify a person with Arch (Tech) Dip is an Architectural Technician not an Architect.

thanks for pointing out a technican, any obvious differences between this and fully qualified architect ? The person in question has worked for circ 15years studied at College etc.

Being a technican does it infer lesser quality work or what limitations do they have ?

My architect is a technician & is brilliant - he already designed my sister's house & she was delighted with his work & house looks great.

Don't know of the difference but I am very happy to go with him

I cannot speak for all architects and technicians out there but the difference would be that technicians deal more with the detail in preparing drawings wheras an architect would be more qualified in designing. AFAIK it takes 2 years longer to qualify as an Architect. Most architects and technicians I know are perfectly capable of doing both jobs, it just depends on how you want the end product to look. A qualified architect would have more experience with that aspect.

Someone asked about an architect called Jeremy Kelly from Lucan. We got him to design our new extension and we couldn't rate him highly enough. Firstly, he came up with some great ideas that wouldn't even have occured to us. We had it built through direct labour, and having dealt with blocklayers, plumbers, roofers etc., we came away thinking Jeremy was better value for money than any of them.

You wouldn't happen to be Jeremy Kelly by any chance MDFD ?!!

When getting a price for architectutal services, be the price from an architect or an architectural technician, you should be getting a break-down of exactly what services they are providing. They should have PI insurance, should be able to certify the job fully (for stage payments, certs of compliance for building regulations, planning conditions, etc), will give you good advice at each stage of the project and be on hand to do the site supervision works.
On a side note, being a technician does not infer lesser quality work - it means the person did a different course to an architect. Architectural Technicians have a different set of skills to an architect; while and architect will generally 'design', the technician will be more ofay with building regulations, construction methods, etc. IMO before anyone gets offended!

ATgirl said:

On a side note, being a technician does not infer lesser quality work - it means the person did a different course to an architect.

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They don't have training in design though. I would definitely not recommend a technician for a job where design flair or lateral thinking is required. If it is a simple "join the dots" job, where the client already has a fair idea of the extension etc. , then by all means use an experienced technician.

"They don't have training in design though."

I didn't say they had training in design, i was saying its a different course in response to the post from coulghy wondering if being a technican infers lesser quality work.
but in response to the comment above, ok, technicans may not be trained in all aspects of design as architects have been, but for standard jobs (as i think the op was asking about an extension to a house?) experienced technicians worth their salt will be able to carry this out. of course there are some who wouldn't know design if it hit them in the face, but imo there are a number who would have the design flair required.

We are in the process of hiring an Architect in Galway can anyone recomend one as we have made loads of calls & got lots of quotes there are some differences between quotes.
We only want an Architect to do plans & get us our planning from this it will be a self build so we have an engineer to see it through to the end stage.
Would an technician do the same job?

Hi,

I have recently completed a new build was carried out by a builder, full planning permisstion and building regs i also have completion certs from planning the planning office, i am not selling i will be renting the property out, i am re-finacing but the morgage company have not asked for a certificate at the moment, i would like to have one incase i refinace in the future and the new company may ask for one.

My question is, how much should the certificate cost, i have been quoted £1000,£1200 by my architech, i have also been told this is inflated because the arcitech has been supervising the build throughout the construction on an hourly rate and should give me the certificate for no cost, but the aritech is claiming this is at cost because it costs him £200 per year per property to keep up the insurnace for teh cert? is this correct as my solictor thinks its totaly incorrect?

Very much appreciate any comments.

Regards
Liz

Hi just bring to the top,appreciate any comments.

Liz.

money999 said:

Hi,

I have recently completed a new build was carried out by a builder, full planning permisstion and building regs i also have completion certs from planning the planning office, i am not selling i will be renting the property out, i am re-finacing but the morgage company have not asked for a certificate at the moment, i would like to have one incase i refinace in the future and the new company may ask for one.

My question is, how much should the certificate cost, i have been quoted £1000,£1200 by my architech, i have also been told this is inflated because the arcitech has been supervising the build throughout the construction on an hourly rate and should give me the certificate for no cost, but the aritech is claiming this is at cost because it costs him £200 per year per property to keep up the insurnace for teh cert? is this correct as my solictor thinks its totaly incorrect?

Very much appreciate any comments.

Regards
Liz

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