"systematic short time" v "casual short time" definition

Hi all
i am looking for definition of "systematic short time" .

I worked for 5 yrs on five day week salary basis.

One year ago due to recession we were put on three day weeks ( on 3/5 salary ). I claimed JSB.

The employer is now closed and we were made redundant. I am now looking to get cert from SW to confirm that the JSB received is not taxable.

They say it is because we were not on "systematic short time" but casual short time.

Asked them why were were not on "systematic short time" and they seemed very vague about the reason.

They implied it was nearly like luck of the draw on who was entering the details at inital signing on.

Any help or similar experiences please

It is very very complicated (pity the person trying to determine the classifaction)! This from this link; note you can be reclassifed during the claim from SST to P/T working if the pattern of work changes. I think your best bet is to get them to determine the weeks that you wer paid one-fifth rate (i.e. SST) rather than one-sixth rate (P/T) adn give you a letter based on those dates:

(e) Systematic Short-time

Short-time employment means employment in which, for the time being, a number of days is systematically worked in a working week which is less than the number of days which is normal in a working week in the employment concerned.
Short-time working must be systematic, i.e., there must be a clear repetitive pattern of employment each week, e.g. 1, 2 or 3 days per week, every week or say 2 days in the first week and three days in the second week, with this pattern repeated every two weeks.
The person must also work at least one day in each week that s/he would normally be working (i.e. which is normal in a working week in the employment concerned)
Work on a week-on/week-off basis is not systematic short-time.

In determining whether/not a person is working on a systematic short-time basis, Deciding Officers should consider:

• whether there is a history of full-time employment, e.g., more than 6 months with the same employer.
• whether the person's decision to commence short-time working is voluntary/involuntary.
• whether it is the intention of the employer that the short-time working arrangements will be temporary. The likely resumption date should be noted and the position kept under review.
• During the course of a claim, regard should be had to developments within the firm/company. For example, if the employer has taken on extra staff or has staff on overtime since the introduction of short-time working, the systematic short-time arrangements no longer apply. In such cases, the person may be re-classified as a part-time worker.
• Rate/Days of Payment for Short‑time Claimants

The number of days of JB payable each week to a short-time worker is limited to ensure that the total number of days paid and the number of days worked do not exceed five. The amount of JB payable in respect of each day of unemployment is one-fifth of the appropriate weekly JB rate.
EXAMPLE:
A single person's working pattern is reduced from 5 days a week (Mon - Fri) to 3 days a week (Mon - Wed) 2 days JB are payable @ 1/5 JB weekly rate in respect of each day."

Thanks for the help in sorting this out. we were on 3/6 basis so I can see it was considered part time. have to do calculation. if change to 2/5 basis will owe the SW money and be eligible to get tax refund. i would guess its a no win situation.

Hi Welfarite I really need your help. I have the same problem. Last February I was put on 3 day a week and an being paid €94.00 a week taxable from now. What I want to know is if my employer can give me a few weeks full time work and then puts me back on 3 days will I have enough stamps or credits put back on to go back on JSB. One of the girls in the office is going on Maternity leave and he said there might be a few weeks work.

As your next claim is linked to your last claim, there are no new qualifying conditions.

I am not putting up a PRSI contribution at the moment as I am under the threshold. As I read it you would need to have 13 contributions in place before you are entitled to return to JSB. Do you know if you can pay the contribution yourself.

bellandbear said:

I am not putting up a PRSI contribution at the moment as I am under the threshold. As I read it you would need to have 13 contributions in place before you are entitled to return to JSB. Do you know if you can pay the contribution yourself.

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No, you only need 13 contributions to requalify if yiou have exhausted your 312 dasy entiutlement to JB. this is not the case here

Are 13 contributions the same as 13 weeks work so if I understand correctly do I have to work 13 weeks do they have to be all in the one go. If I stop and work for 13 weeks then reapply is this is a new claim even though I havent exhausted all my 312 days entitlements. Also I was put down when I applied for JSB as a Part-Time Worker even though it should have been systematic short time. What should I do. If I ring Social Welfare will this upset the situation. Does it make a difference for the criteria for re-applying for JSB

bellandbear said:

Are 13 contributions the same as 13 weeks work so if I understand correctly do I have to work 13 weeks do they have to be all in the one go.

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Yes.13 weeks cons./work can be built up once you have claimed 156 days JB adn don't have to be in one continious period of employment.

bellandbear said:

If I stop and work for 13 weeks then reapply is this is a new claim even though I havent exhausted all my 312 days entitlements.

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No. Your claim is 'linked' to previous claim and not a 'new' claim.

bellandbear said:

Also I was put down when I applied for JSB as a Part-Time Worker even though it should have been systematic short time. What should I do.

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You cannot just be 'put down' as a P/T worker; classification is as per my previous reply. Chvek situ with SW.[/quote]

bellandbear said:

If I ring Social Welfare will this upset the situation.

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why would it?

bellandbear said:

7Does it make a difference for the criteria for re-applying for JSB

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?????