Don't throw stones at bigger people than you they might be "Israeli"

S

S.L.F

Guest
Watching the news over the last couple of days I have a lot of sympathy for the ordinary Joe soap on the street or in the morgue but I'm damned if I can find any sympathy for Hamas at all.

I just don't get it, the last time Hamas crossed the border and took 2 Israeli soldiers from their post, Israel bombed their country back into the stoneage.

Why oh why would they risk it again by firing rockets back into Israel again?

Hamas itself have declared their main goal is the destruction of Israel so what choice does Israel have but to attack?
 
It's nice for a change in Ireland to see a post or comment where the poster isn't automatically blaming Israel, regardless of the particular circumstances.
 
It would be similiar to the people up north throwing stones at the paras and the paras replying by bombing everybody in the area as a response. The response was disproportionate to the Palastine aggression.


Israel are still occupying land that they should not be. They should move back to the land they were given at Palastines expense in 1947. When Palastine was divided in two to accomodate the Jewish people. Maybe then a peaceful cooperation can be found.
 
A number of circumstances have been tried but Hamas each time change their objectives and the situation continually goes back to a war. Apparently Hamas have been continually firing their rockets for months with little cessation. It now does appear that others are providing arms with larger range missiles to try and destruct Israel. The entire situation looks bleak to say the least and unless and until some common ground is achieved more innocent lives will be lost - but the Palestinians have no value on life whether it be their own or others.
 
Niallers said:
It would be similiar to the people up north throwing stones at the paras and the paras replying by bombing everybody in the area as a response. The response was disproportionate to the Palastine aggression.
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Just to clarify, the current situation isn't over stone throwing.

Israel are still occupying land that they should not be. They should move back to the land they were given at Palastines expense in 1947. When Palastine was divided in two to accomodate the Jewish people. Maybe then a peaceful cooperation can be found.
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As far as I'm concerned any land they occupied they're entitled to keep. If they choose to give any away as part of peace deal settlements, it's entirely their choice, if they are happy it doesn't compromise their security etc. Land 'fairly won' in wars instigated by their enemies is fair game to my mind.

Unfortunately their neighbours will only be happy when the nation and it's people are wiped from the face of the earth.
 
each Israely airstrike just recruits more Palestinians to fight with HAMAS. We've seen it in Ireland with the IRA and Loyalists. It's really sad and so obvious that it will never end unless the tit for tat ends.
 
Niallers said:
each Israeli airstrike just recruits more Palestinians to fight with HAMAS.
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Each rocket attack on Israel (of which there have been hundreds) has seen Israel become more militant, but what else can Israel do but attack

Niallers said:
We've seen it in Ireland with the IRA and Loyalists.
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I thought the IRA's problem was to do with Britain occupying a part that doesn't belong to it, not with the loyalists.

Since it is HAMAS who are in power in Gaza (unless I'm mistaken which I'm pretty sure I'm not) they are the ones who call the shots (or rockets:eek:)

If FF went mad and started to fire rockets into Britain what do you think would happen?

They would plead with us to stop, then go to the EU, the UN European court and everywhere else they could to stop the rockets but when all those avenues have failed what else is there to do.

Invading Gaza is a very very costly exercise, it is far cheaper to use aircraft and bomb every known HAMAS building you can find.

Niallers said:
It's really sad and so obvious that it will never end unless the tit for tat ends.
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It is very sad but I don't have any solutions, I just know you can't fire hundreds of rockets into Israel and think they won't respond with military force, Israel just doesn't have any other choice.
 
And then our own Minister for Foreign Affairs, Micheal Martin condemns Israel for defending itself. What an Anti-Semetic Muppet !!

The Government here should read the facts rather than rely on the misleading Propaganda been passed about.
 
The Hammas spokesman brought religion into it by saying that other Islamic nations would back them! Now, whether one thinks Islam is either a religion or way of life, I would imagine that most people in the world would rather be in a country which wasn't under Sharia law or one of it's many offshoots. It is very easy to fall into the 'victim scenario' trap .......... and these sons of the desert are top of the league for wailing/shouting/gesticulating. The quality of life in the camps is very poor, but Hammas need that to keep the recruitment going. Also the sending of mentally challenged kids/adults to their doom (unless they actually believe the whole virgin fantasy) should be more widely reported in the press. Arafat hid countless millions away ......... again the result of idealism being corrupted by power/money. So Israel, return Gaza and the West Bank ......... under an internationally supervised plan ....... give the necessary aid to Palestinians to go forward, acknowledging Israel's right to exist being paramount to the receiving of aid. And after a five year break, any serious breaches should be treated as war crimes ......... and dealt with as such.
 
Niallers said:
Israel are still occupying land that they should not be. They should move back to the land they were given at Palastines expense in 1947. When Palastine was divided in two to accomodate the Jewish people. Maybe then a peaceful cooperation can be found.
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Read your history. Palestine was divided into two when the Arabs, lead by the Jordanians, invaded at exactly the same time that the British handed over their old (post WWI) league of nations mandate to the UN. (The British were given most of the old Ottoman Empire lands in the Middle East to administer but by the late 30's had granted independence to most of the Arab states. The formal intent to establish a Jewish homeland also dates from this post First World War period).
The Jordanian King Abdallah was open in his desire to expand his territory, a desire which dated back to the post Ottoman dream of establishing a greater Hashemite Kingdom across the Fertile Crescent. So the Jordanians (along with the six other members of the Arab league, invaded Palestine, ostensibly to stop the formation of a Zionist state. It was clear well before the invasion that Abdallah did not intend to withdraw or establish a Palestinian state. This was confirmed in 1950 when Jordan held elections on both sides of the Jordan river (their border was east of it) referring to the Palestinian part as the 'West Bank of the Jordanian Hashemite Kingdom'.

So... if Israel withdraws from the West Bank who should they give the land back to?
Why are UN declarations about returning to 1948 borders only looked at in the context of Israel? Why is the requirement on all parties to respect the sovereignty of their neighbours ignored?
Why did the Arab League betray the Palestinian people so utterly in the 40's and 50's?
 
My sister works for a NGO and has visited every war torn area in the past ten years and always says that it is Gaza that causes her to despair the most. She said they are the normal civilians are the most amazing people she has met but they are living in conditions beyond belief. Whatever the politcal situation, the world needs to face the fact that there is a humanitarian disaster happening and a State i.e. Israel is blocking aid from getting in. This is totally unacceptable and there is no defence for it.

As for Israels decison to use Air Strikes, what do they hope to achieve? They won't bring down Hamas, they haven't stopped the missiles and they have killed over 300 people compared to 4 Israelis while causing massive instability in the region. Personally I would love troops to enter Gaza and take down every single member of Hamas and every other militant group. Its not going to happen though. Look what happened when Israel they attacked Lebanon in 2006. They are not going to that again. So within the next couple of days we are going to be back at exactly the same situation as before. They will be some sort of ceasefire which both sides will break and nothing will have been achieved apart from more misery and despair. There will only ever be a political solution to this problem but I will be damned if I know how it would work.

And anyone who accuses anyone who dares to criticise Israel of being anti-semetic should take not part in any discussion on the subject. This is not an argument that be broken down to good v evil or right v wrong. Both sides are as bad as each other. Lets be honest here, the whole region is a basket case
 
Sunny said:
My sister works for a NGO and has visited every war torn area in the past ten years and always says that it is Gaza that causes her to despair the most. She said they are the normal civilians are the most amazing people she has met but they are living in conditions beyond belief. Whatever the politcal situation, the world needs to face the fact that there is a humanitarian disaster happening and a State i.e. Israel is blocking aid from getting in. This is totally unacceptable and there is no defence for it.

As for Israels decison to use Air Strikes, what do they hope to achieve? They won't bring down Hamas, they haven't stopped the missiles and they have killed over 300 people compared to 4 Israelis while causing massive instability in the region. Personally I would love troops to enter Gaza and take down every single member of Hamas and every other militant group. Its not going to happen though. Look what happened when Israel they attacked Lebanon in 2006. They are not going to that again. So within the next couple of days we are going to be back at exactly the same situation as before. They will be some sort of ceasefire which both sides will break and nothing will have been achieved apart from more misery and despair. There will only ever be a political solution to this problem but I will be damned if I know how it would work.

And anyone who accuses anyone who dares to criticise Israel of being anti-semetic should take not part in any discussion on the subject. This is not an argument that be broken down to good v evil or right v wrong. Both sides are as bad as each other. Lets be honest here, the whole region is a basket case
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I agree with most of what you say but the UN Agency for Palestinian refugees said that around 50-60 civilians have been killed. That means that 250+ Hamas fighters have been killed which I see no problem with.
I don't agree that both sides are as bad as each other; Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza have been better off when they have been rules by Israel since their own leaders have shown themselves to be incompetent and corrupt (with Arafat up there with Idi Amine for stealing the wealth of his starving people). Israel does not initiate the attacks and the root cause of the “Palestinian problem” is the betrayal of them by their Arab brothers in general and Jordan in particular. It should be remembered that the Arab League blocked all attempts to get up a Palestinian government in Palestine in 1948 of a government in exile before that. The Palestinian people were nothing more than a political football back then and nothing has changed (despite the pro-Palestinian rhetoric in the charter of the Arab league).
While I have huge sympathy with the civilian population on the ground the reason they are in the situation that are in is because they seek to destroy their neighbour, ironically the only one they have which has ever done anything to help them.
 
mercman said:
And then our own Minister for Foreign Affairs, Micheal Martin condemns Israel for defending itself. What an Anti-Semetic Muppet !!
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Criticising Israel for attacking Gaza is not anti-Semitism.

Anti-Semitism is hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group.
 
Sunny said:
And anyone who accuses anyone who dares to criticise Israel of being anti-semetic should take not part in any discussion on the subject.
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I agree whole-heartedly - anyone should be able to comment on a country's foreign policies without being accused of religious intolerance. Criticising particular actions taken by Israel is not anti-semitic, no more than criticising actions by Palestine (or Iran, or Malasia) is anti-Islamic. Part of the problem with the entire debate is that people are accused of antisemitism if they disagree with any actions by the Israeli state. I, for one, am not prepared to accept that moniker, but I do feel entitled to have and state my opinions on the actions of the Israeli state.

That said, I agree that Israel should be able to address attacks on its country, but surely they actually have the expertise and military equipment to do so without such huge loss of civilian life? Also, the (current) geography of the area makes it hopeless for humanitarian aid to get through if Israel refuses it to be allowed through. I don't think anyone would support Hamas' attacks on Israel, but from a political perspective at least, it seems counter-productive for Israel to respond in its current manner.

Sprite
 
Slash said:
Criticising Israel for attacking Gaza is not anti-Semitism.

Anti-Semitism is hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group.
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Yes but what else would you attribute his utterance to; ignorance and stupidity or an attempt to court the vote of the ignorant and stupid Irish people who are blindly pro-Palestinian?
 
WaterSprite said:
I agree whole-heartedly - anyone should be able to comment on a country's foreign policies without being accused of religious intolerance. Criticising particular actions taken by Israel is not anti-semitic, no more than criticising actions by Palestine (or Iran, or Malasia) is anti-Islamic. Part of the problem with the entire debate is that people are accused of antisemitism if they disagree with any actions by the Israeli state. I, for one, am not prepared to accept that moniker, but I do feel entitled to have and state my opinions on the actions of the Israeli state.

That said, I agree that Israel should be able to address attacks on its country, but surely they actually have the expertise and military equipment to do so without such huge loss of civilian life? Also, the (current) geography of the area makes it hopeless for humanitarian aid to get through if Israel refuses it to be allowed through. I don't think anyone would support Hamas' attacks on Israel, but from a political perspective at least, it seems counter-productive for Israel to respond in its current manner.

Sprite
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250+ gunmen killed with 50-60 civilians... hard to see any way they could have done better than that.
 
Well said Purple! This whole affair is being propped up by other Arab states for their invidious purposes. Palestinians wake up, take a deep breadth and think for yourselves. Only then will you achieve peace, prosperity and a future for your children. You are being used by your fellow Arabs.
 
WaterSprite said:
That said, I agree that Israel should be able to address attacks on its country, but surely they actually have the expertise and military equipment to do so without such huge loss of civilian life?
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Difficult when the targets have no regard for their own people, using them as human shields, launching rocket attacks from school yards etc.

80% plus of the dead were enemy combatants.
 
Why is everybody automatically saying that Israel is equal to Jews? Only 76.1% of Israeli citizens are part of some sort of Judaism followed by 16.2% Muslim and than some other minorities.

Following this thinking the Republic of Ireland is a catholic state and anything done here is fault of the faith based corporation called Roman Catholic Church and in theory we all should accept the Pope as our head of state. This is given that there are about 86.82% of Roman Catholic people here.

But beside that the State of Israel has the right to defend itself and that is independed from them occupying land that they gained during the 1948 war in which let’s face it they were at lot of times victorious.

Do I think that they should return land they occupy in the West Bank to the Arab Palestine State? Sure very fast.

But beside that, if someone is going to fire 80+ rockets a day on my property you will see me very fast taking action and that action will lead to them not longer being able to do it because I take away their rockets, supply routes and people. What is wrong with that, it’s anybody’s right to defend himself against aggressions.

Hamās (after all a terrorist organization) was elected by the people in Gaza fully knowing that Hamās does not accept Israel and is nothing else than a Muppet of Iran.

Unfortunately these people are cowards hiding in the middle of civil population, kinder gardens and schools to fire rockets. So the IDF will unfortunately cause some civilian collateral damage in their attempt to take away the infrastructure, supplies and supply routes. If these cowards would not hide behind children than this would not happen.

This is not longer a war between 2 sites on a battle ground where both sides wear uniforms and the areas of combat are clearly visible.

So what do you want Israel to do? Live with Hamās firing Rockets etc to harm civilian population (Hamās is not targeting military installations but civilians) just because the IDF might cause collateral damage in their attempt to go after Hamās?

And also let’s not forget that at the same time the IDF is going after Hamās the IDF is actually assisting in delivering humanitarian supplies to the Gaza strip. They do everything to not do what Hamās is doing, target civilians.

I am sorry for any loss of live on any side, but it’s down to Hamās not the IDF.

There is no easy solution to this but imagine you have to live in a shelter just because you get rockets into your kinder garden every day. Would you accept that or take action to protect your children? I would not.
 
Purple said:
250+ gunmen killed with 50-60 civilians... hard to see any way they could have done better than that.
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Indeed. Unfortunately the massive bias is shown in many Western media outlets when they quote the death toll on both sides. Rarely do they distinguish between Palestinian terrorists and Palestinian civilians.
 
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