Personal experience of buying in Bulgaria

Not sure what being a girl has to do with it but....
Oh an attempt of humour on my part.

I bought a small villa for around 14,000 Euros and have now spent around 10,000 Euros on it renovating it into two apartments. Plus abit more on kitchens, furniture, sorting out the garden etc. However, it is easily worth at least 40,000 Euros.
So 14+10 = 34. Say 3 on kitchen,garden,expenses. Total 37. Less selling price 40. 3K profit. And i am not including your time in the project. Hardly spectacular. But please correct me if i am wrong

I have had a new house built (3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, central heating, solar panels, huge terrace, wooden floors, 3 fireplaces....) for around 70,000 Euros. The plot cost me 6,500 Euros.

6.5 + say 40(conservative?) to build 46.5. Expenses +costs another 4. 50.5. Profit of 20K not including taxes and your time involved in project.

Again not really spectacular. But again correct me i am wrong.
 
14 + 10 = 24, not 34.

Basic renovations cost 8,000 Euros (all labour in, none of my time really gone into project), kitchens were a further 2,500 Euros, I then had outside work done for around 5,000 Euros more (painting, new fencing, outside tap, two gravel driveways and other bits and pieces.

So total say 14,000 + 8,000 + 2,500 + 5,000 = 29,500 but say 30,000 for arguments sake.

So if I sold for 40,000 (and could likely get a little more but market fairly untested in terms of selling on houses done up to Western standards) I would make 10,000. That is in around 8 months.

Sorry do not understand your second calculation. House has cost around 70,000 Euros to build, not 40K. Not sure what I could sell this on for, probably not make much on it but then as it is my home to live in I have spent more on wooden floors, fireplaces to my liking, expensive tiles etc than I would have, if purely for selling on and investment. Project managed mainly by someone else.

The other rural properties I bought for around 5,000 Euros I could easily now sell on for 10,000 to 15,000 Euros depending on property as all had large plots, in good villages, nice views etc. However, I am opting to hold on to these.

There is money to be made here and I think for someone just looking to get started in property investment, putting say 10,000 Euros into a nice house in a lovely village in a great country which will steadily increase is a good option. The risk is small, the capital tied up is small.

Rachel
 
I am glad to see people like Rachel contribute here, as it is not anymore looking like one-sided view presentation (aggressive sales driven by the money-hungry Bulgarians who'd not hesitate to use lies and scam...). My compliments to you, Rachel !

I have already met a couple of British, and a Dutch, brokers/developers, and I have heard about many others through third parties, and these are all decent people. Hence the outcry on some posts would subside, I guess, if some of them took part in the discussion by simply sharing their experience.

This is not to say that there are no problems whatsoever; however, till now the trend on these postings seemed deliberately emphasizing the negatives. In that regard I would certainly agree with Rachel that Auto320 seems heavily biased. In fact, I reviewed his postings on some randomly picked themes involving Turkey, Roumania and Bulgaria, and clearly his drive always ends with... buy in Spain. He is trying to disguise this by thinly veiled quasi-positives here and there - otherwise it would look too obvious - but inevitably there is the most important line for him present there: Spain and Spain again.

To complete this topic, Auto320 claims he knows Bulgaria well, and the real estate market there, too, of course. If you visited in 1999 and quote the collapse of the banks etc., of that same year, it does raise a red flag with me: the banks collapsed in 1996 ! Granted, it may have been a typo but it puts me on alert nonetheless. So, the stories about the starving people are clearly something you heard via third party which in turn has heard it via others... Please try to be more serious when you claim you know a country: it takes some individuals a whole lifetime. Yes, there was partially famine - and not just for one year - after "communism" was replaced by "democracy" but that started in 1990 and certainly did not last a decade. In other words, Auto, I doubt the depth of your analysis. Already earlier I did express agreement with some of your points; however, much of the rest of your considerations are not based on comprehensive knowledge.
 
You are misquoting me Ivan D. I never suggested that the famine lasted a decade, just that it resulted mostly from the collapse of the pyramid scheme in the late nineties. You are right about it being earlier, I was writing from memory, but the facts are the facts and I gather that you largely concede this to be the case.

Just to correct one assumption that you are making, that I somehow have a vested interest in Spain. Not true, but I would still advise anyone looking for a holiday home that offers winter sunshine and a nice winter climate to look at Spain. That country has the best winter climate in Europe, and comparisons made by property agents that suggest that Bulgaria is somehow a viable alternative are simply untrue. I have, to be sure, used Spain as my winter escape from this climate for more than twenty years, and I never tire of it. It can be reached in a couple of hours fom Dublin, and apart from the occasional wet week, the sun shines from blue skies all year long. Yes, you do need to turn on the heating at night in wintertime, but you can still have your breakfast on the terrace in warm sunshine for most of the year. That is not showing some kind of bias, just the truth of the matter. The climate in Bulgaria is nothing like that. That is a matter of fact, not my opinion. If pointing out the obvious, i.e. that Spaiin has the best winter climate in Europe and that the place is easy to get to, somehow suggests a bias, well then ok, I'm biased!

The main reason that I tend to be a thorn in the side of the companies selling overpriced garbage in Bulgaria, Turkey, Dubai and similar markets is because I believe that there is a need to somehow counteract the massive advertising spend and hype that scams hundreds of Irish buyers out of their hard-earned savings (or borrowings, more likely) in these markets. Innocent buyers, finding themselves in a position where for once in their lives and in Ireland's history they can actually make investments to secure their futures, are losing out to marketing hype and dishonest marketing methods. Nobody with any kind of analytical mind could see anything other than a scam in the "guaranteed rentals" properties on sale in Bansko or Sunny Beach, yet thousands of buyers get caught by this trick every year. These buyers have in many cases taken on additional mortgage payments to pay for this dross, and they stand no chance of ever seeing a return for their "investment." Zero. Zilch. They have bought apartments that they will never see any kind of return on. If they are lucky, they will get out at some stage with a good percentage of their money, but in real terms they will certainly lose money at best.

I just don't think that this is right. It's not fair to the young couples who will go out to work for years to pay these scammers their excessive margins. Its not fair that the one chance that these buyers have to put something away for the future is snatched away from them by "three card trick" merchants. On a national level, it's not good that the one chance for Ireland's citizens to build wealth in global markets is being watered down by crooks and conmen. Do I feel strongly about this? Yes, I do,and I'm sorry if it offends the dishonest sectors of the property business, a business that gave me a good living and has now given me a secure retirement.

On the issues that have obviously rocked your boat, I don't have a problem with the kind of stuff that Rachel is doing. She is doing no harm to anyone, just playing the market and reviving tired old properties and giving them a new lease of life as holiday homes at reasonable margins. Nothing wrong with that, and Bulgaria is a beautiful country that will always have a limited market for expat holiday homes, for sale to the small sector of people who like the country and its culture. You are missing the most important point though; any crash of the mass market on the coast and the ski areas wil also pull down the rural properties market, making it a risky market for investors, including people like Rachel.

Yes, there are many nice and honest people in the property business, but the flood of information and hype being dumped on people with a few euros to spend is all too positive and wonderful; I merely try to balance that a little. I know from feedback that my postings cause a lot of annoyance in certain sectors of the business, and I have no doubt that a few of these get on this board to try to negate what I do. Not everyone will listen to me, but a few will, and will save themselves a lot of grief. Property can be a great route to wealth, but not through the mass market stuff that we see marketed every day in markets like Bulgaria.
 
Hi Auto320,

Forgot to mention, as far as glossing over the issues of selliing on, we genuinely have no idea what will happen when we try to sell. We hope we will be able to but only time will tell. We have no experience of this so there is very little we can say.

mmmm. from an 'investment' point of view, I can see the point of the site, but I'm still not convinced on your reasons for this investment.
you mention you have "no idea what will happen when we try to sell". Surely the point of a property investment (just like shares or even deposits), is to have an exit strategy that MAKES you money. This should be one of the main questions to ask when investigating any potential country to buy property in.
I might add (as an oversea's property owner), that Bulgaria in particular does not seem to have a local seller market. You only make (or lose) money on your investment once the property is SOLD. You are potentially relying on selling to other foreign investors.

The question I asked myself with regard to Bulgaria was: when do I envisage LOCALS being able to afford the property I looked at? I couldn't find a reasonable answer to justify the risk. Is it 10 years? 20? Its not less, thats for certain sure.

I should add/admit, for some sort of balance (or explaination), that I find Bulgaria to be not a very nice place whatsoever. I travel a great deal in eastern europe, and its definitely the more corrupt of the EU 11, by a great margin.

Intestesting aside: On a recent visit there I was told that there has been a noticable drop in organised crime, and in surrounding countries, because the criminal gangs have all moved to IRL and GB!

All that said, I hope it works out for you. Investment is by its nature a gamble. Always nice when it pays off :)
 
For apartments in the tourist areas I agree with you, no resale market at all really, even to foreigners but for houses it is different totally. Not all Bulgarians are poor, in fact some have an awful lot of money, especially in the cities and these people are buying country houses as holiday villas and also for investment. Of course most agencies, the one I work for included, tend to only work to attract foreigner buyers but there is a market for Bulgarian buyers. And another area many Bulgarians are starting to look at and invest into is city apartments, either to love into or to rent out or just as investment.

Rachel
 
either to love into or to rent out or just as investment.

Rachel[/quote]

is the lover supplied or do you just rent out? :)
 
Well if you're lucky comes with lover! Might be a 92 year old granny that does not want to move out though!
 
Hi Paddy,

I can see the point of the site, but I'm still not convinced on your reasons for this investment.
you mention you have "no idea what will happen when we try to sell". Surely the point of a property investment (just like shares or even deposits), is to have an exit strategy that MAKES you money.

Obviously we invested in Bulgaria to make money, and our exit strategy is to sell only one apartment each year when we feel the time is right. any investment is a gamble. There are a lot of negative comments currently generally about Bulgaria. This was also the case in the UK about 3 years ago when so called experts were on TV suggesting that the market had risen too high. One expert even suggested that anyone who had any sense should sell their home and move into rented property, wait for the crash and buy in again cheap. Three years later the market is still rising. Anybody who followed his advice must now deeply regret it.

We invested in Bulgaria in 2005 and all our committments in Bulgaria were made at prices prevailing then and based on the knowledge we had then. With hindsight we are probably overweight in Bulgaria. Fortunately all our eggs are not in this one basket and we could quite possibly have found better investments elsewhere. We are currently committed to our existing investments in Bulgaria until such time we think we should get out.

The website - I hope - does not in any way suggest or advocate that an individual should invest in BG. It is up to the individual to do his/her own checks and only invest if they feel it is right for them and if they feel comfortable about it. After all nobody wants an investment which causes them to loose sleep. The website's aim is merely to bring together a lot of the facts and procedures involved in buying in Bulgaria and where help can be found. Hopefully it is an impartial view rather than an agent's view who would after all paint the rosiest picture to sell properties. We hope to show both the positives and the negatives.
The site is in a constant state of refinement so please keep checking.

http://www.bulgariabuyer.co.uk


Shadow74
 
Out of interest, we are getting a lot of hits on our site from Ireland since posting on this thread.

I'm curious, is Askaboutmoney.com based in Ireland.

I'm just surprised at the number of hits resulting from here.:)

Shadow74
 
Wow!

There are a lot of people in Ireland interested in Bulgaria! :)

Shadow74
 
and turkey. and spain. and portugal. and romania. and cape verde. and france. and russia. and south africa.and uk. and poland. and hungary. and bosnia and montenegro. and slovenia. and slovakia. etc etc etc. in fact I think I have seen nearly everywhere queried/suggested/promoted/demoted. few exceptions. can't remember Afghanistan though I suspect I just missed that post ;) .
 
can't remember Afghanistan though I suspect I just missed that post ;) .

I remember reading that the Sunday Times property supplement tipped Islamabad so I wouldn't rule anything out just yet ... gateway to the Middle East, impending EU entry and all that ...
 
I was just wondering who to contact if I was interested in buying a small property inland in Bulgaria ?
 
I would suggest that you will have no problem finding a small property inland in Bulgaria -- a few agents have popped up on this site, and a few others are probably lurking and will let you know shortly! However I would also suggest that you pay a very small price for any such property. I would furthermore suggest that if you are seeking a property for investment purposes (this thread is about investment after all) that you forget the whole idea and either keep your money or go elsewhere. Almost anywhere else really!
 
Do not listen to Auto. Purchasing a small rural property in Bulgaria can be a good investment but depends on your long term plan. Renovations of a rural property can be expensive. But all the rural properties I bought have more or less doubled in last year. I paid between 5,000 Euros and 15,000 E for my 8 properties.

Visit my site for more details.

Rachel
 
But all the rural properties I bought have more or less doubled in last year. I paid between 5,000 Euros and 15,000 E for my 8 properties.

Visit my site for more details.

Rachel

Eh.... how do you know they have doubled, have you bought a property and sold it for double the price within the year or are the properties just valued at twice the price, no offence intended Rachel but they are two completely different things.
 
An exit strategy is based on worst case senario -
The central tenet of this in property investment is and always will be 'The day you buy is the day you sell'
I.E. If 2 weeks after buying your 35K apartment/home in Bulgaria you have to sell it, that you are able to sell it and get you money back as a worst case senario.

Bulgaria has little demand and the amount of people that have bought property thinking they could flip it on for a profit but are holding their finger tips, that I have come across is huge.
Sadly these people tend to be first time investors who believed lies by Estate Agents and have borrowed on their Irish/UK homes.

If you want this cheap rural retreat yourself or have the 'small' amount it takes to invest and are looking for a punt in rural Bulgaria, then fine.

However if you are borrowing to do so, then dont take my word for it, pay abit of money for some independent advice. It would be the best investment you will make from this tread.

'The day you buy is the day you sell'
Bulgaria has little or no resale market however - Ask the experts NOT estate agents or fearing purchasers who are trying to talk up the market to protect their investment. They will be there for the very long haul.
 
Good advice Barryo, but I can almost guarantee that nobody is listening.

It is a factor of the human condition that people believe what they want to believe, even if it is in direct contradiction to the facts that they see before their eyes. Therefore people will continue to "invest" their hard earned (or hard borrowed) money in Bulgarian property, in defiance of the facts. Pity, but that's how it is.
 
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