EBS What does an EBS "Variable Base Rate" mortgage mean?
- Thread starter tonymac
- Start date
Bill-i think your evidence & your case is significant and the central bank will be very interested to see it. It demonstrates that the variable base is same rate as tracker yet is a different rate to the advertised SVR. EBS advertises tracker rates & SVR were the same up until May 2008 so made it difficult to differentiate the 2 and argue that the variable base is definitively a tracker & not a SVR.
I’m not familiar with the language used in prospectus documents like the EBS one I’ve attached. However, having seen what happened with PTSB I would keep an eye on EBS “securities” (mortgages) being sold on and thereby avoiding the variable base issue or further trackers being identified. I also see in this document the timeline of 12 months from last December to sell securities which fits the timeline given to me by EBS staff to sort out the variable base argument i.e. end of 2018. The risks associated with undisclosed trackers also noted in this prospectus. All of this might explain why EBS has been hidden away by the AIB group. Perhaps AIB want to sell EBS mortgages and the delay in providing a final response to the variable base question is because EBS, FG & maybe the CBI want to pass on this issue to an unregulated vulture fund this year??
https://www.ebs.ie/content/dam/ebs/...bs-mortgage-finance-programme-update-2017.pdf
https://www.ebs.ie/content/dam/ebs/...bs-mortgage-finance-programme-update-2017.pdf
Last edited:
haveaniceday
Registered User
- Messages
- 142
Hi There b26354
you know just before the last election there was a lot of talk about selling on The EBS mortgages - I remember as I brought it up to a TD when he came to the door - his response to my concerns was shocking to me - basically he saw nothing at all wrong with it and tried to give me an explanation of what it means as if I was a particularly stupid and naive 2 year old (maybe tho in retrospect it was more of lesson in how little he actually grasped the situation... which is even more scary )- interestingly he was not re-elected despite being a minister. at the time.
BUT yes I think this is a real risk - also is the fact that these the vulture funds are free to increase our variable rates to whatever the hell they want - EBS were well on their way to doing this until pressure stopped them - I am not sure this pressure would be applied to a vulture fund with any success
you know just before the last election there was a lot of talk about selling on The EBS mortgages - I remember as I brought it up to a TD when he came to the door - his response to my concerns was shocking to me - basically he saw nothing at all wrong with it and tried to give me an explanation of what it means as if I was a particularly stupid and naive 2 year old (maybe tho in retrospect it was more of lesson in how little he actually grasped the situation... which is even more scary )- interestingly he was not re-elected despite being a minister. at the time.
BUT yes I think this is a real risk - also is the fact that these the vulture funds are free to increase our variable rates to whatever the hell they want - EBS were well on their way to doing this until pressure stopped them - I am not sure this pressure would be applied to a vulture fund with any success
Hi I've been following this thread for long time and have done what was recommend in regards emails to ebs and my TD, and got a letter from ebs last week saying that I was not affected by the tracker redress review they are completing ,as the variable base rate that I was to go on is in fact a svr and that is their final letter on the matter ,ps I took out mortgage in 2007 and fixed for first five years then I was to go to the variable base rate like every one else I assumed it was the European base rate + margin so I don't know whats going to happen now but to say im pissed of is an understatement I am in arrears of about a month from time to time and have in the last year or so been bombarded by phone calls from the arrears unit demanding payment for arrears ,if they put the same energy in to telling us where in my documents it says variable base rate is infact a standard variable rate id be delighted.
I dont think theyve got a clue what theyre doing, i wrote them an email recently and now get a monthly letter which i know some other posters here have been getting as they had no answer yet to what i said that the VBR my partners on did actually track the ECB rate at a rate of +1.25%. To recap she started in May 2007 and the VBR said (currently5%). B26354 started his/hers in August 2007 and the VBR said (currently 5.25%). The ECB rate went up from.3.75%-4% on june 13th 2007 which in both cases is a margin of +1.25% above ECB, and to me that is no co-incidence. In my partners case she was put straight on to a 3 year fixed rate as a condition of her mortgage and after 3 years would revert on to VBR. This to me on its own PROVES that the VBR DID track the ECB rate certainly in both these cases and im quite sure there are a lot more like them. If anyone can tell me that im wrong and why please do but i also ccd the central bank who havent even bothered yet to give me a reply.
Finally got my response letter back from EBS; they continue to say i’m not impacted and that the variable base rate does not track the ECB rate at a margin nor is it even “linked” to the ECB base rate. They say that the variable base rate is a rate they can change at their own discretion.
In response to the above letter I have written to the Central Bank and informed them that EBS are now stating that the variable base rate is not a tracker and is not “linked” to the ECB base rate. I’ve also attached evidence to my e-mail including EBS documentation & EBS appointed broker documentation that clearly shows that the variable base rate is indeed “linked” to the ECB rate.
I can see this dragging on for a few months but banks seem to be making their moves now while the public servants & politicians are on leave.
In response to the above letter I have written to the Central Bank and informed them that EBS are now stating that the variable base rate is not a tracker and is not “linked” to the ECB base rate. I’ve also attached evidence to my e-mail including EBS documentation & EBS appointed broker documentation that clearly shows that the variable base rate is indeed “linked” to the ECB rate.
I can see this dragging on for a few months but banks seem to be making their moves now while the public servants & politicians are on leave.
Hi b26354 I got the same letter a couple of days ago the timing seems oddly fast I was told in june that the review would take months think you maybe right,they seem to be trying to tie me in to the prevailing variable rate group like AIB have done to that cohort ,there's absolutely ambiguous interpretation in our contracts ,I just want to hear from the central bank and its interpretation of wording I am so switching bank asap .
To update, i have emailed the central for a second time requesting a response to my previous email of 17/7 last . Im awaiting a response from.them.before i go to Padraig Kissane and/or the FSO. I will suggest at some point in the near future B26354 that we combine our documentation regarding the point i made above as i feel that is one of the strongest pieces of written evidence we have, no fluke there that it just happened to track at 1.25% above and hopefully our evidence will bring others over the line. Im keen to hear youre thoughts on a joint approach.
Hi All
I have received our file back from EBS, We fixed for three years on 13/01/2007.
Our loan offer came out to us on the 20/03/2007 stating fixed for three years @ 5.05%. After three years Variable Base Rate (Currently 4.75%)
Can you advise me who you contacted in relation to the variable base rate. I feel the more people that makes contact the better.
Or what steps I should take??
I have received our file back from EBS, We fixed for three years on 13/01/2007.
Our loan offer came out to us on the 20/03/2007 stating fixed for three years @ 5.05%. After three years Variable Base Rate (Currently 4.75%)
Can you advise me who you contacted in relation to the variable base rate. I feel the more people that makes contact the better.
Or what steps I should take??
haveaniceday
Registered User
- Messages
- 142
ford5610
so in 2007 feb
the tracker and the variable rates were both 4.75%
Is there anything in your file, in your contract - in any notes defining what a Variable Base Rate is?
did you have a broker - did they get info saying what a Variable Base Rate is
the bottom line here is where is there a definition from EBS to you saying what is a Variable Base Rate
so in 2007 feb
the tracker and the variable rates were both 4.75%
Is there anything in your file, in your contract - in any notes defining what a Variable Base Rate is?
did you have a broker - did they get info saying what a Variable Base Rate is
the bottom line here is where is there a definition from EBS to you saying what is a Variable Base Rate
Attachments
TonyMac-I think the best option is to go to Kissane as I am represented by him. He will bring all of the evidence together from a large number of VBR customers and i’m sure he will escalate things once the CBI & politicians get back from holidays.
The fact that EBS have suddenly sent out these letters to a number of customers in August indicates its a strategic move on their part.
Thanks for getting back to me B26354, if i dont hear from CB very soon thats where i will be going and if ok ill be mentioning what weve spoken about here and in fairness if you and i have noticed the tracking then certainly PK wont miss this. Sounds very straegic doesnt it especially with the politicians away etc. Any developments from.my end ill keep this forum posted.
There are only 2 variable base rate definitions and both seem to involve EBS appointed brokers so information was disseminated by EBS to said broker(the brokers hardly made it up as it appears on EBS loan offers between 2004-2008):
1. There is a Variable Base Rate definition provided in the mortgage glossary on the mortgageireland.ie website. The date of the glossary is 2006. This has since been removed from the internet and I don’t think this broker exists anymore but I’ve attached it again here for all to see and I’ve sent this into the CBI.This definition demonstrates that the variable base rate is linked to or is dependent on the rates of the central bank i.e. the ECB. This means that EBS cannot change the VBR at their own discretion as is the case with a SVR. EBS/AIB have confirmed that their SVR is not linked to the ECB base rate now so they have a contractual nightmare on their hands.
2. The mortgage illustration sheet that was sent to customers by the EBS appointed broker Lisneys. This defines the variable base rate as tracking the ECB base rate at a margin of +1.25%. I don’t have this actual document but PK does. I have sent the details that appear on it to other posters on here to show it does exist.
Attachments
Hi Ford 5610, i got in touch with enquiries@central bank.ie and the EBS tracker review and i now get monthly letters from EBS which basically tell me what i already know that my partners account is under review although ive seen the other posts here that say they are not impacted. In other posts here i have conversed with B26354 about the fact that his/her account was taken out in August 2007 and states that the VBR is currently 5.25% and my partners has currently 5% on hers and that was from May 2007. Yours seems to be the same, an initial 3 year fixed rate followed by VBR, currently 4.75. This certainly adds to my argument that this type of mortgage tracked ECB at +1.25% as when i googled the ECB rate history there it was, it went up to 3.5% on 13/12/06 and youre document says currently 4.75%, eg +1.25%. The next rise was on 14/3/07 when it went to 3.75% and the one after was on 13/6/07 when it went to 4%. When you see the rates when the 3 of us started its clearly +1.25% so if i was you id be getting in touch with Padraig Kissane and would be highlighting this as part of youre case, B26354 is already with him and my partner will be this week as the CB came back to and said they dont deal with individual cases but my comments were noted. This way at least the more evidence he has the better. In the meantime please keep us posted with any developments as i will and good luck, the more people in this position the better for me, hope this is helpful for you.
deansmith27
Registered User
- Messages
- 45
Hi Tonymac
Did you/partner ever sign a tracker application,before the fixed, with ecb+1.25%?
I have also researched this margin of the variable base rate and they all line up with dates that you have outlined here.
I signed for a tracker but I also received another document from sars recently which shows a variable base rate of 4% which coincides with the tracker margin of 1.25% and the ecb rate at the time.
deansmith27
Registered User
- Messages
- 45
Just another note for other readers here.
I took the advice of one poster here and simply rang EBS support requesting they put me back on my tracker.
I was directed to make my case to my local EBS bank manager who informed me that he has to forward my case to the ebs loans department for investigation and they must get back to him and in turn inform me.
Nb. This is separate to the CB investigation.
Regards
DS
I took the advice of one poster here and simply rang EBS support requesting they put me back on my tracker.
I was directed to make my case to my local EBS bank manager who informed me that he has to forward my case to the ebs loans department for investigation and they must get back to him and in turn inform me.
Nb. This is separate to the CB investigation.
Regards
DS
Hi deansmith27, from speaking with her she told me she was never told about any tracker application form, it appears that the initial 3 year fixed rate was a condition of her mortgage. It was a 100% mortgage so they could use that and no form to determine shes not entitled to one even though she like most people were green regarding all this at that time. They could also use the broker to get out of it so far from certain yet and who knows maybe i am clutching at straws but the thing is all my recent posts here highlight the VBR tracking ECB +1.25% and it seems from talking with a few people here that were not alone so the question they need to give us and others an answer to is when is a tracker not a tracker.