Why is there still subprime lending in Ireland?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jonathan.OB

Registered User
Messages
164
This bothers me greatly.

I worked in several mortgage brokers over the past number of year and eventually lost my appetite and faith in the business because of the underhanded tactics being used by brokers and banks alike, effectively conning people into borrowing above their means.

Some of you may have seen the PrimeTime programme on the "mis-selling of financial products" a few months back. The programme revealed the various 'tricks' used by brokers operating in the subprime wing of one of the largest mortgage brokers in Ireland and the initial response was one of shock and anger.

However, it seems to me that the reckless activities of brokers and the muted outcry is caused has been forgotten about. With the Irish Economy now in recession and the world's financial systems in disarray, I believe it's high time we look at all aspects of our lending system and the various practices from all parties that have and will further contribute to the deflating of the property market.

I no longer work in the mortgage industry, but always keep watch over significant developments that might be reported on. One such was the court order hearings for foreclosures on Monday just gone. I believe 50 cases were heard resulting in 6 repossession orders and the remainder given further time. Of the 50, a large majority were charged from the largest subprime lender in Ireland, who shall remain nameless for now and this didn't surprise me in the least, as I have had first hand experience of the reckless, irresponsible lending policies they had adopted since launching their "sup-prime" product several years ago. Whilst I have no doubt that this bank in question have since tightened their lending policies and have restricted their "fishing" of the market to the least vulnerable, I do not agree with the business model, full stop. Sub Prime lending does not work, regardless of the differences between the unbelievably carefree, high risk practices of the American SubPrimes and the Irish lenders so-called measured, careful approach.

To put it in simple terms - debt should not be solved and diluted with further debt & increases in interest rates for homeowners. To put it politely, I have seen families get screwed over by banks and brokers alike and the severe consequences have yet to be felt.

I would like to hear of people's experience with brokers and banks who you may have acted without caution and proper judgement. It would be better again if people would like to talk about their experiences with subprime lenders.

I have no personal vendetta here and don't wish any broker or bank-worker out of a job. But when I received a phone call at 9pm one Friday night back in June from a sobbing client, who had been wrongly advised to take out a subprime mortgage previously and since had accumulated insurmountable debts and the countless problems associated, I could not let this pass.

J
 
And, of course, if anyone is looking for advice or have question on any problems they may be encountering with brokers/subprime lenders/banks, hopefully we can solve them together.

Ta
 
One simple question I keep hearing the word subprime this that and so on, what exactly in simple terms are we talking about here. I understand whats going on here with regard to liquidity ratios and banks over lending along with credit crunch...


Rgd's
M
 
Its okay I worked it out, was nt sure but its basically lending monies to ppl who cant afford it... or 100% mortgage from a broker who should nt be giving you a mortage in 1st place!!
 
i have a "sub Prime" Mortgage, have it since sept 07.
Partner had credit problems with credit cards 4 years ago and was on his icb.
we are on a rate of 8.44% which im currently trying to re-mortgage at the moment.
We were informed last week that they wont be passing on the ECB rate cut to us.
We have had 8 increases since we took out the mortgage
 
Its okay I worked it out, was nt sure but its basically lending monies to ppl who cant afford it... or 100% mortgage from a broker who should nt be giving you a mortage in 1st place!!


Not really 100% correct. It's a mortgage for someone who the banks won't touch.

Could be , they can't afford it , they have a bad credit history but can afford it , their income can't be proves (people working off the books,etc)...
 
You dont say who the biggest sub prime lender is but I can take a guess. Long before the crisis one particular building society above all others was quick to repossess. You see they stood only to gain because prices only went up. In these circumstances there was equity in the asset loaned against almost immediately. These houses then became the possession of the lender who always seemed to sell it on at just above the loan amount. Strange that. With that background you can see whay it never mattered if the borrower could meet their repayments - lots of people won - the lender and brokers, but not the borrower.
Absolute sharks and worthy of retrospective investigation
 
Could be , they can't afford it , they have a bad credit history but can afford it , their income can't be proves (people working off the books,etc)...[/quote]

Okay fair enough. Cheers.
 
Sub-prime lending is fine in theory. Some people who have bad credit records but who can afford to buy a house should be able to buy a house.

The Irish Nationwide was the first sub-prime lender in Ireland. They charged a higher interest rate and people were glad to get the loans. Most of their customers managed to sort out their finances and moved to other banks or negotiated better deals with the Irish Nationwide.

The problem was that if you fell into arrears with the Irish Nationwide, it was impossible to get out. They charged 20% penalty interest on arrears. Worse than that, they actually calculated the arrears incorrectly although they dispute this. They also passed on only half of the interest rate cuts.

They have been replaced in the public disaffection by Smart Mortgages. I have no first hand experience of them, but they do seem to be in the courts a lot.

The Financial Regulator needs to develop a code of practice specifically for Sub-prime and they need to enforce it. Then it would fill an important gap in the lending environment.

Brendan
 
The new government 'Home choice loan' scheme announced in the budget is sub prime lending.

One of the conditions of acceptance is that you have already been refused a mortgage by a bank! As well as earn over 40k and other conditions.

For proof on this see:

The answer to your question as to why there is still subprime lending in Ireland?

Well in this case, it's because it will bail the developers out of trouble. I'm all for responsible lending and people getting a hand but this type of loan scheme is irresponsible and an outrage to the everyday person.

By the way, did I mention the above scheme applies to 'new builds' only? (Cough).
 
Last edited:
I agree with Brendan, in that there should be facilities for those who may have ran into trouble or found themselves in unfortunate circumstances, but this should be contained within a mainstream lender's business.

The likes of Start Mortgages and Springboard Mortgages have been vehicles used by investors to squeeze higher returns from their bond investments.

I don't have too much time to say all I want to, but at the weekend I'll express more views.

Great reponses so far though.

Pixied, thanks for the link, will investigate further now.

J
 
Maybe the government should insist that those who borrowed on subprime mortgage rates and struggled to meet repayments be reduced to normal rates to see if they can get out of trouble. It is entirely possible that some/many people paying 8% or 9 % would be able to cope with 5% or 6%. This could be part of the price of the government bailing out the banks.
 
This could be part of the price of the government bailing out the banks.

You mean the taxpayers ie you and me and ...

I have been prudent and not overborrowed but now I am being penalised and being forced to help those you have not been as prudent as I was. I am all for helping those in need but at what stage do adult people have to take responsability for their own actions ? We are not dealing with 7 year old kids here.
 
You mean the taxpayers ie you and me and ...

I have been prudent and not overborrowed but now I am being penalised and being forced to help those you have not been as prudent as I was. I am all for helping those in need but at what stage do adult people have to take responsability for their own actions ? We are not dealing with 7 year old kids here.

Not everyone overborrowed to get behind on payments eg credit cards from years ago.

Some people have legit reasons why they fall behind on things, like 6 months in hospital, and no income to pay bills.

Granted some people dont take Responsability for there actions but not everyone should be classed in the same means
 
Maybe the government should insist that those who borrowed on subprime mortgage rates and struggled to meet repayments be reduced to normal rates to see if they can get out of trouble. It is entirely possible that some/many people paying 8% or 9 % would be able to cope with 5% or 6%. This could be part of the price of the government bailing out the banks.

Maybe the sub prime mortgage lenders should be investigated to see to what extent the loans they offered were predatory and the ones that were found to be predatory could be declared void. This will never happen of course but it should.

About 5 years ago I worked (for 2 weeks) for a broker that "specialised" in sub prime lending. Some of the practices there were depraved, there is no other way to describe it. It was a case of "helping" the client to get the maximum amount of a mortgage possible without the client really realising what they were getting themselves in for.

To defend the decent brokers out there, some people who go down the sub prime route will not listen to reason either. Most simply didn't understand how interest rates worked, they just knew there was money in the house and there was a way of getting this money from the house in order to keep up with the Jones' and change the car/go on holiday/get decking.

Personally I do not deal with sub prime mortgages because you know at some stage whatever advice you have given will end up biting you on the behind as you may be made to shoulder some of the blame if a repossession occurs regardless of whether the client signed a statement of suitability (rare in sub prime case in my limited experience) or not.

In relation to the new government initiative, does anyone know if the applicants will actually have their credit checked or if the government really is becoming a sub prime lender?
 
Last edited:
The new government 'Home choice loan' scheme announced in the budget is sub prime lending.

One of the conditions of acceptance is that you have already been refused a mortgage by a bank! As well as earn over 40k and other conditions.

For proof on this see:

The answer to your question as to why there is still subprime lending in Ireland?

Well in this case, it's because it will bail the developers out of trouble. I'm all for responsible lending and people getting a hand but this type of loan scheme is irresponsible and an outrage to the everyday person.

By the way, did I mention the above scheme applies to 'new builds' only? (Cough).

If I understand this homechoiceloan thing correctly, it too could be a ticking timebomb for many touching it. Is this correct ?

- Single person earning say, €41,000 buys a new build for €280,000 at 7 times their salary, and can just about afford the mortgage.

- Let's say in 2 years (while the 2nd hand market has almost certainly been dropping in the meantime), he has to sell because for whatever reason he can no longer afford to pay his mortgage.

- The problem now is he borrowed €280,000 but 2 years have passed where the house (which is now a 2nd hand house) is in considerable further negative equity.

- He is goosed for life, while the property developer is sitting under a palm tree in the sun having offloaded the otherwise empty property and banked the profit.

- If I am correct, this is outrageous and even worse that the Government are backing it. A scandal in the making.

- Wouldn't the guy be better off just continuing to save until the market bottoms out ?
 
I concur.

A complete scandal and the nail in question is the one in Fianna Fails coffin.
 
But we are now into Friday, and even though I get it, this is not news anywhere, even though it does look to be a scandal of some proportion. This may not be exposed until 1000s are caught in the trap.
 
You mean the taxpayers ie you and me and ...

I have been prudent and not overborrowed but now I am being penalised and being forced to help those you have not been as prudent as I was. I am all for helping those in need but at what stage do adult people have to take responsability for their own actions ? We are not dealing with 7 year old kids here.

Have to agree with JPD, I work in the industry and have lost count of the number of times I've seen credit card statements in the '000's...never mind car loans, personal loans, Hire Purchases for TV's and Sofa's. At some point people have to take responsibility for their own spending - the concept of saving for luxuries like TV's and holidays is alien to a lot of people.

I think greed is the driver...on the part of the individual, the brokers, the bank, the developers...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top