Why did Ulster Bank not include mortgages that tracked the Euribor/ BCOF in its Tracker Mortgage Examination?

CarrotStick

Registered User
Messages
78
I was wondering why Ulster Bank did not include such mortgages in its tracker mortgage examination. The Central Bank of Ireland‘s “Framework for Conducting Tracker Mortgage Examination“ December 2015 specifically states:

3.2.1 In the course of the Examination the lender is to review all mortgage accounts in respect of
both Private Dwelling Houses and Buy-to-Let properties:

and that

For the purposes of the Examination, a “Tracker Interest Rate” refers to the interest rate applied to a mortgage product: 1) which tracks a rate which comes from a publicly available source which can be verified by both the customer and the regulated entity, including without limitation, a rate that tracks the European Central Bank (ECB) main refinancing operations rate; and 2) which is calculated in a manner similar to a rate which falls within 1) above, and includes interest rates calculated on the basis of a fixed rate margin and/or pricing promise.
2 Both enduring and one-off contractual rights and options are to be included within the scope of the Examination.


Euribor rates comes from a publicly available source which can be verified by both customer and the regulated entity. The Provider’s Bank‘s Cost of Funds (BCOF) is also primarily based on Euribor as well. So why were these types of mortgages excluded?
 
Last edited:
Can't say I've heard of them but if they did as the name suggests they would have been an expensive product for consumers at the height of the banking crises. I presume people were quick to move off them.
 
Can't say I've heard of them but if they did as the name suggests they would have been an expensive product for consumers at the height of the banking crises. I presume people were quick to move off them.
Hi Skrooge, they were quite common between 1990 tp 2003, during this time Ulster also provided Prime 1 to Prime 5 interest rate mortgages. Then in 2006 it changed such mortgages (some say unilaterally) to it’s New Bank Cost of Funds Rate, which is essentially based on the one month euribor rate. Have you heard of UB’s bank cost of fund rate mortgages? From 2008/2009 most if not all mortgages issued by UB (with the exception of ECB rate tracker mortgages) were of this type, but, for some reason, were not included in the Tracker Rate Examination.
 
Last edited:
What a coincidence!

Someone else raised this issue a few years ago.

 
What a coincidence!

Someone else raised this issue a few years ago.

Brendan, I don’t believe I got an answer to this important issue last time around, maybe I‘ll get a plausible response from someone who can answer the question this time, or someone in the CBI, Government or a consumer advocate will possibly read the thread and run with the ball.

The amount of people possibly affected by this matter could far exceed the total amount of currently impacted borrowers from the tracker mortgage examination, which as an aside, and apart from your good self, was brought to Government’s attention by an individual who was neither a solicitor or barrister, but which involved complicated legal issues surrounding the interpretation of contracts, in particular, interest rate variation clauses in mortgage loan contracts with different providers In Ireland.
 
Last edited:
1990 is a long way back and whatever rate was there probably doesn't exist any more.

Besides, early 2000s is generally excepted as the introduction of tracker mortgages in Ireland. I doubt if anyone had introduced them beforehand they wouldn't have marketed the hell out of them.

"New Bank Cost of Funds Rate" might closely track the euribor but that doesn't make it the euribor. The cost of funds rate sounds like a marketing gimmick. I remember seeing the Woolwich building society offering a tracker rate in the UK. I had a little chuckle when I read the not so small print. That rate tracked some Barclays rate. It was just window dressing for a variable rate product. I imagine that most of the Ulster products were similar.

Stephen Hawkins disproved time travel by throwing a party for time travelers and no one turned up. In the same way perhaps the fact no one complained here or to the ombudsman means they're weren't really trackers.
 
1990 is a long way back and whatever rate was there probably doesn't exist any more.

Besides, early 2000s is generally excepted as the introduction of tracker mortgages in Ireland. I doubt if anyone had introduced them beforehand they wouldn't have marketed the hell out of them.

"New Bank Cost of Funds Rate" might closely track the euribor but that doesn't make it the euribor. The cost of funds rate sounds like a marketing gimmick. I remember seeing the Woolwich building society offering a tracker rate in the UK. I had a little chuckle when I read the not so small print. That rate tracked some Barclays rate. It was just window dressing for a variable rate product. I imagine that most of the Ulster products were similar.

Stephen Hawkins disproved time travel by throwing a party for time travelers and no one turned up. In the same way perhaps the fact no one complained here or to the ombudsman means they're weren't really trackers.
Hi skrooge, you are right I got the dates completely wrong, apologies. I believe Euribor mortgages were introduced by UB in 2002.

In relation to to UB’s BCOF mortgages, the CBI’s framework for conducting tracker mortgage examination definition of what a tracker interest rate is, is quite broad in its application, it states,

“For the purposes of the Examination, a “Tracker Interest Rate” refers to the interest rate applied to a mortgage product: 1) which tracks a rate which comes from a publicly available source which can be verified by both the customer and the regulated entity, including without limitation, a rate that tracks the European Central Bank (ECB) main refinancing operations rate; and 2) which is calculated in a manner similar to a rate which falls within 1) above, and includes interest rates calculated on the basis of a fixed rate margin and/or pricing promise.
2 Both enduring and one-off contractual rights and options are to be included within the scope of the Examination.”

UB BCOF mortgages do track the one month euribor rate. If this interest rate varies, so to does the interest rate applicable to the respective BCOF mortgage. BCOF mortgages track this Euribor index. This is my point. Whether the BCOF mortgage also has other variable rate elements that make up the overall variable interest rate charge to its customers is irrelevant. The fact is, from reading the CBI’s definition of what a Tracker Interest Rate is, UB’s BCOF mortgages appear to be captured within the scope of its tracker examination, but for some unknown reason where not reviewed. This is the issue that I would like answered.

In relation to the unilateral introduction of Ulster Bank’s BCOF mortgage to its customers in May of 2006 from it’s Prime interest rates, I believe there was a number of complaints to the FSPO.

In its annual report of 2006 (page 24 refers) it stated,

SUCCESSFUL RESOLUTION OF A NUMBER OF MORTGAGE COMPLAINTS ON A PARTICULAR ISSUE

In mid-2006 I received, within a few days, a cluster of complaints (18 in all) from customers of a FSP arising from unilateral action taken by the FSP in relation to the repayment terms of one of its mortgage products. For my office to receive a cluster of complaints about a particular matter is most unusual. The complaints revealed that the FSP had written to a number of customers who held mortgages of a particular type of repayment advising that this particular arrangement was to be discontinued. The Complainants who contacted my office were clearly unhappy with what had been proposed.
Having reviewed the complaints, I felt that there might be a systemic issue being revealed, and rather than deal with each case in succession I decided to call in the FSP concerned and ask for an explanation of the cause of the problem. When the FSP came to see me and the Deputy Ombudsman, it was pointed out to them that what was proposed was a material change in the terms of the mortgage contract. Without the agreement of the mortgage holders I would, in all likelihood, be upholding these complaints, one by one, as things stood.
The FSP admitted that there was a problem and that perhaps its approach had not been best practice so far. It asked for time to bring forward new proposals to put to its customers. I considered that a further eight weeks to try to resolve the issue was appropriate.
At the end of that time the FSP came back and stated that 17 of the 18 cases had been resolved amicably as a result of new proposals. I indicated that the new response was a fair and reasonable one and, if implemented, the FSP would have no further case to answer. I wrote to the Complainants accordingly and also to the FSP complimenting it on its approach to the problem.
This is a good example of a FSP recognising a mistake and, following discussion with me, developing a good resolution to what had been a difficult and complex problem to resolve.

17 of the 18 customers accepted renumeration from Ulster Bank. The 18th went to court, see link.


Finally, maybe the time travellers didn’t turn up to Stephen Hawkins party, because it was too much effort to get there versus what they would get out of the party.
 
Last edited:
It would seem some kind of review and redress was conducted, for business lending at least.


Ultimately the devil's in the detail, specifically the customers "facility documentation". If the wording in the loan agreement were to have said that a tracker mortgage rates (A) tracks the BCOF rate (B), and it in turn it defined the BCOF as always equal to the euribor (C), without exception, then I imagine it could fall within the scope of the tracker review. I.e., A=(B=)C

However, if the loan documentation (or reference to some other relevant document) didn't define the BCOF then that ambiguity gives the bank liberty to change it as it liked. I.e., A=B≈C so the fact that B≠C in all instances means it's not a tracker.

I would imagine it's Ulster's argument that the mortgages you mention fall into the latter category. I've no idea if that is the case but there are contact details on the site for anyone who might wish to challenge them.
 
It would seem some kind of review and redress was conducted, for business lending at least.


Ultimately the devil's in the detail, specifically the customers "facility documentation". If the wording in the loan agreement were to have said that a tracker mortgage rates (A) tracks the BCOF rate (B), and it in turn it defined the BCOF as always equal to the euribor (C), without exception, then I imagine it could fall within the scope of the tracker review. I.e., A=(B=)C

However, if the loan documentation (or reference to some other relevant document) didn't define the BCOF then that ambiguity gives the bank liberty to change it as it liked. I.e., A=B≈C so the fact that B≠C in all instances means it's not a tracker.

I would imagine it's Ulster's argument that the mortgages you mention fall into the latter category. I've no idea if that is the case but there are contact details on the site for anyone who might wish to challenge them.
Hi Skrooge,
I saw this, this was for business lending only, Ulster Bank reviewed same and found they did not have the contractual right in some of their BCOF to amend the definition of BCOF. They reverted impacted customers to the contractual BCOF and paid them compensation Circs 2018/2019. I believe they made a balls of that calculation and have only recently wrote out to impacted customers with another remuneration cheque. (Where was the CBI and it’s oversight.)

In relation to the tracker mortgage examination, there can be no doubt that the BCOF rate tracks the one month euribor. This is stated in Ulster. Bank’s definition of what makes up the BCOF rate. You may be right that Ulster Bank made the specious argument that because there were other factors involved in the setting of the BCOF that it wasn’t strictly a tracker mortgage. However, CBI’s own definition of what a tracker mortgage rate is, includes the BCOF and that therefore is should have been included in the tracker rate examination.
 
What a coincidence!

Someone else raised this issue a few years ago.

That was a great thread. It was difficult at times to keep up with the number of users the same person had conversing with themselves!

To answer the original question, EURIBOR was included within scope, but I'm assuming the OP is referring to something else, but dancing around the facts. The title says EURIBOR and now we're talking about BCOF.

It'd be much easier to help if the OP (whichever name they're going by this time) could clarify if:

1. They had a mortgage or a commercial loan
2. Whether the contract stated the interest rate was linked to; EURIBOR, PRIME, Bank Cost of Funds
3. When the facility was dated
4. If there were any refinances of the facility
5. The type of property that was used as security
 
Last edited:
Red Onion, thread title amended.

Originally with Ulster Bank on a Prime 5 rate, then without notice, unilaterally moved onto BCOF in May 2006. Signed new amending facilities tracking UB’s BCOF in 2009 without Ulster Banks deplorable and unreasonable conduct of 2006 being brought to my attention. The overall interest applied to my mortgage accounts remained the same but structurally, Ulster Bank’s margin had increased by over 300%, regarding Prime 5 and by 33% regarding Prime1 loan facilities.

Discovered Ulster Bank’s unreasonable conduct regarding this issue in 2017. Would NOT have signed 2009 facility with UB, if I had known about its May 2006 conduct, I would have complained to the FSPO at that time, (like the other 18 borrowers). The funny about it was Ulster Bank never sent me any correspondence notiifying me about this change to the interest variation clause in my mortgage loan agreements!

1. Had a mortgage Loan for BTL.
2. above paragraph
3. One of the BTL Facilities was originally dated 2002.
4. Offered new facility (without my application) in 2009 and signed same.
5. PPR and other BTL’s

BCOF to date, some of the loan facilities redeemed In full. I believe, from the CBI’s definition of what a tracker interest rate is, that all BCOF mortgages issued by Ulster Bank should have been included in the tracker examination, but where not.

In relation to the Prime rate to BCOF issue, was there not an onus on the FSPO (where it believed a systemic issue was being revealed) to contact the CBI about this matter, and also press Ulster Bank to bring this issue to the attention of all its impacted customers (not just those lucky enough to have received correspondence from Ulster Bank and who had then complained to the FSPO),, after all, a material breach of contract is a very serious issue and it would have been remiss of the FSPO (and against its charter) to sweep this matter under the carpet (if this was indeed what happened). To date I have received no correspondence from Ulster Bank about it’s conduct in May 2006.

Any consumer advocates, solicitors, barristers care to reply.

All comments welcome. Hope this helps Red Onion.
 
Last edited:
In relation to the tracker mortgage examination, there can be no doubt that the BCOF rate tracks the one month euribor. This is stated in Ulster. Bank’s definition of what makes up the BCOF rate. L
Based on the link I provided I think there's reasonable doubt that the BCOF tracks the euribor in a manner that would warrant mortgages linked to it being included in the review. There are 3 different version of the same rate!

That's not to say they shouldn't have been included in the review if Ulster have indeed narrowly defined the BCOF as always equal to the euribor. You say this is stated, where exactly and what is the wording? I think this is the key evidence needed to support your claim.

I really don't see why a bank would offer a tracker linked to the euribor and not call it that. I don't see any benefit as a marketing tool to rebrand the euribor as BCOF. Rather it makes more sense to make the BCOF a rate that they can adjust as they like - which means it's not a tracker.

Of course banks - and this one in particular - have form in in doing silly things.
 
You already have clients that should be able to help:




Why would you offer your PPR as security for a BTL mortgage? Or are you intentionally mixing different facilities together?
1) Thanks for you deep insights, the comment was obviously not intended for you.

2) Ulster bank included it as security when the 2009 facility letters were posted out to me to sign (distant marketing methinks), probably beefing up their security.

I see you have no views on UB’s unilateral alteration of my facilities from Prime Rate to BCOF Rate. You must have a banking background. A material breach of contract is a serious issue (That’s how the FSPO saw it). This conduct was hidden from me.
 
Last edited:
Based on the link I provided I think there's reasonable doubt that the BCOF tracks the euribor in a manner that would warrant mortgages linked to it being included in the review. There are 3 different version of the same rate!

That's not to say they shouldn't have been included in the review if Ulster have indeed narrowly defined the BCOF as always equal to the euribor. You say this is stated, where exactly and what is the wording? I think this is the key evidence needed to support your claim.

I really don't see why a bank would offer a tracker linked to the euribor and not call it that. I don't see any benefit as a marketing tool to rebrand the euribor as BCOF. Rather it makes more sense to make the BCOF a rate that they can adjust as they like - which means it's not a tracker.

Of course banks - and this one in particular - have form in in doing silly things.
Hi Scrooge, they are not the same rate, the definition of all three BCOF’s are different (Hence different interest rates apply). The fact of the matter is that that all three track the one month euribor rate but have different other components that make up the final interest rate, but the vast majority of the applicable interest rate charged to customers regardless of which BCOF comes from the the one month euribor and the fixed margin. Therefore, from the CBI’s own definition of what a tracker interest rate is, the BCOF mortgage should have been included in the tracker examination In the first instance This is the issue.
 
Last edited:
The fact of the matter is that that all three track the one month euribor rate but have different other components that make up the final interest rate, but the ast majority of each of these BCOF rates directly track the one month euribor. Therefore, from the CBI’s own definition of what a tracker interest rate is, the BCOF mortgage should have been included in the tracker examination In the first instance.
What is the definition of the BCOF that Ulster supplied to it's borrowers?

I read the CBI definition differently to you. The fact that you acknowledge there is something else that goes into the BCOF apart from the euribor means it doesn't track the euribor. Yes the BCOF might be similar to the euribor but it doesn't have to track it one for one. It's this ambiguity that stops it from being a true tracker (of the euribor).

The other bit of the BCOF comes from a source that isn't publicly available and which cannot be verified by anyone, other than I imagine Ulster - because it's defined by Ulster as they see fit. This is at odds with the Central Bank requirement you referenced in your original post.
 
Scrooge, this is the definition of the BCOF in my loan facilities.


Interest will be charged at a rate of interest equal to the aggregate of:-

(a) the rate of 1.5% per annum, and
(b) the Cost of Funds
(together the “Interest Rate”)

Where:-
“Cost of Funds” means

(i) the rate of interest per annum calculated by the Bank on a weekly basis as the average of the one month Euribor rates at or about 11am on each of the preceding five days on which the one month Euribor rate is available on the Reuters Euribor screen designated EURIBOR01 or the equivalent Telerate service page or such page as may replace these pages on these services (as converted to a 365 day rate); and


(ii) the rate of interest per annum determined by the Bank, in its absolute discretion, to compensate it for the costs of complying with any reserve asset and/or special deposit or liquidity or funding requirement (or other requirements having the same or similar purpose) whether direct or indirect and whether of any Regulatory Authority (whether or not such requirements have the force of law) or otherwise and any such other costs (direct or indirect) as the Bank may occur in raising funds in the market


with the total of (i) and (ii) being rounded down to the nearest one twentieth of one percent.”

“Regulatory Authority” means the Central Bank and the Financial Services Authority of Ireland, the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority, the European Central Bank, the Financial Services Authority, the Bank of England, the Revenue Commissioners, the UK Inland Revenue and any other fiscal monetary or regulatory authority in any jurisdiction including the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision (and, in each case, any successor).

Interest shall accrue from day to day on the daily cleared debit balance at the Interest Rate and will be calculated on the basis of the actual number of days elapsed and the 365 day year. Interest is payable and compoundable at the Bank’s normal interest rests now monthly but subject to variation at the discretion of the Bank.

The Interest Rate may vary at the Bank’s discretion on a weekly basis and the Bank will notify you of any such changes.”

Scrooge, I intend to start a new thread about the unilateral change by Ulster Bank in May 2006 from its Prime Rate to its new BCOF rate in the coming days due to the amount of calls I am receiving regarding same.
 
Last edited:
Thanks CarrotStick.

So IANAL but based on the wording from your loan documentation:

"the rate of interest per annum determined by the Bank, in its absolute discretion, to compensate it for the costs of complying with any reserve asset and....any such other costs (direct or indirect) as the Bank may occur in raising funds in the market."

Your contract outlines plenty of scope for Ulster to vary your mortgage rate from the euribor. As a result your mortgage is unlikely to meet the definition of tracker outlined in your first post.

For the purposes of the Examination, a “Tracker Interest Rate” refers to the interest rate applied to a mortgage product: 1) which tracks a rate which comes from a publicly available source which can be verified by both the customer and the regulated entity,
 
Back
Top