Is the case count a genuine problem though? The measures are largely to protect the health system. But there are only 44 people in hospital with Covid in the whole country. The health system is not under threat. This Government, and their Covid policy, has jumped the shark.
Easing of Restrictions from 10th May
- Thread starter odyssey06
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It's against the law to serve alcohol to someone under 18. It's not against the law to be under 18.
What choice does a 17 year old have?
And someone 18 needs to get ID to prove their age.
Ditto for someone wanting to drive, they have to wait until age X and then go through the process to get the documentation.
People can't eat indoors today. So the choice as presented is either indoors stay shut for everyone, or opens for the fully vaccinated.
Hospitality isn't opening on 5th July for anyone is it? It's a fait accompli.
I'm saying there is merit in doing so for fully vaccinated, as a temporary measure, until we get to effective herd immunity.
If it can be done practically (which it probably can't so it's hypothetical)
It will bring more money into the hospitality sector than NOT doing it, if the alternative is that they stay shut.
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While I'm entirely opposed to the idea of excluding unvaccinated people, if they are to push ahead with it they should clearly state that this is a temporary measure and that once everyone has been offered a vaccine, all restrictions will be lifted. At that point we should also be offering all tourists a free vaccine.
It can't. The Government are overreaching and it will prove self-defeating.
Actually The Journal has a summary here and in several other EU countries there are restictions on indoor hospitality such as proof of vaccine, PCR test e.g.
Austria – Indoor dining is allowed, but for a maximum of four adults, plus children, per table. A negative Covid test, proof of vaccination or past infection is also required to visit a restaurant.
www.thejournal.ie
Austria – Indoor dining is allowed, but for a maximum of four adults, plus children, per table. A negative Covid test, proof of vaccination or past infection is also required to visit a restaurant.
FactCheck: Is Ireland one of the only countries in Europe without indoor dining?
The claim was first made last Friday. The Journal FactCheck finds it to be true.
www.thejournal.ie
Paul I'm not a person who believes in conspiracy theories. I firmly believe that the only possible way out if this is vaccination and I implore and encourage all family and friends to get vaccinated and continue following all other measures that will help to protect everyone.
I do believe in being logical and following logic. I was recently watching A quite place part 2 in the cinema.. People were not wearing masks as they were all munching on there popcorn and drinking their cokes. Few of the people were vaccinated based on age profile.
Should un-vaccinated people be allowed to attend a cinema setting?
I do believe in being logical and following logic. I was recently watching A quite place part 2 in the cinema.. People were not wearing masks as they were all munching on there popcorn and drinking their cokes. Few of the people were vaccinated based on age profile.
Should un-vaccinated people be allowed to attend a cinema setting?
Paul O Mahoney
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I can only respond to what is typed.
Cinemas have greatly reduced audiences and therefore have the space to spread out people attending vaccinated or not.
Pubs and restaurants would not be similar in size, now if a proposal of restricting capacity to say 50% and say 4 people from the same family or household , like many European countries, that might work, but I'll guarantee that the restaurant owners wouldn't be happy with that either.
The only solution that the vested interests want is full opening without restrictions and irrespective of the risks associated with a variant that is transmitted far easier.
Personally, if they don't want to do this keep them closed, or have them create a solution that allows them to open and serve indoors whilst protecting staff, customers and the community they operate in.
Sophrosyne
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The view of representative organizations is that their industry is safe because they say so.
They take no responsibility for the cost of hospital and ICU care nor indeed for deaths of cases and outbreaks attached to their industry.
They are not experts but don’t accept expertise for no other reason than it doesn’t square with their objectives.
But Austria has that already in place, they set up all the infrastructure for that and were honest with their population, therefore they are already open . However we made the explicit policy that indoor drinking and dining would open on July 5, there was nothing about vaccine passports in fact the politicians explicitly ruled this out on the basis that young people would not be vaccinated and this would be grossly unfair. Then as soon as indoor dining is about to open the goalposts are moved and suddenly vaccine passports are now required .Nphet and Tony holohan were at this game all last summer continuously moving the goalposts with new excuse as soon as a reopening date approachedActually The Journal has a summary here and in several other EU countries there are restictions on indoor hospitality such as proof of vaccine, PCR test e.g.
Austria – Indoor dining is allowed, but for a maximum of four adults, plus children, per table. A negative Covid test, proof of vaccination or past infection is also required to visit a restaurant.
FactCheck: Is Ireland one of the only countries in Europe without indoor dining?
The claim was first made last Friday. The Journal FactCheck finds it to be true.
That's a fair point... I think someone earlier in the thread hinted that there's a bit of maneuvering here. They've lobbed a serve to the government that's unworkable given that we're nearly into July already.
I don't think this can be made to happen here in those timeframes; I am defending the idea behind it which has been done properly in those countries - with proper prep time not as a last minute thing.
And the people saying keep everything closed take no account of the costs of keeping everything closed. That will be a multiple of the financial cost of looking after people in hospitals, in the very unlikely event of them ending up in hospital.
The rest of Europe is doing this. Young people are at a very low risk. We have one of the youngest populations in Europe.
It potentially puts a strain on the health system. We have one of the best funded healthcare systems in Europe.
There is a realistic chance that if we open up young people will get infected and spread it to older and vulnerable people who have refused to get the vaccine but people who have refused the vaccine have chosen to put themselves in harms way so if they end up in ICU or dead then good enough for them. We should bill them (or their estate) the full cost of whatever treatment they received.
Other than them who exactly is going to make up the fatalities that Tony is talking about?
Again, what do they know that nobody else in Europe knows?
Deaths per million in last 7 days: Ireland 2.02 ; Denmark 0.17. Cases per million last 7 days: Ireland 392 ; Denmark 195
I agree with you that we are not in as good a position as Denmark.
Deaths per million in last 7 days: Ireland 2.02 ; UK 1.78. Cases per million in last 7 days: Ireland 392 ; UK 1372.
UK's lower death rate no doubt due to higher vaccination rate (although I think that we are still more liberal in how we count covid deaths). Their recent case numbers are 3.5 times ours and this must reflect the fact that people can be served indoors in bars and restaurants and attend indoor entertainment. So I think we should hold off on relaxing the indoors rule.
So with 3.5 times our infection rates their death rate is still lower.
We need to remember that a) as you say we inflate the numbers of deaths by counting anyone and everyone who died who also has Covid and b) our death rates are not necessarily current in that we have deaths in this weeks figures that may have happened weeks or months ago.
The hospitalisation rate for under 30's is 6 times lower than those over 65 and the death rate is 95 times lower. The death rate for under 30's is 610 times lower than over 85's. (Source) In other words an unvaccinated person under 30 us still far less likely to die from Covid19 than a vaccinated person over 85. Why would we let vaccinated over 85's dine and drink indoors and not let the unvaccinated under 30's in with them?
So much the same as the autocratic narcissist Holohan and NPHET who are the the only country in Europe not to embrace Antigen testing ?. In fact , according to Ronan Glynn at the recent Oireachtas transport committee meeting, Nphet never even discussed the Ferguson report.
At a very minimum the latest NPHET figures should be peer reviewed - nothing to loose by doing it and everything to gain.
It's hard to believe that there's indoor dining in every other EU, EEA, EFTA and UK countries ( Greece and Cyprus from tomorrow) and they have all gotten it wrong and Holohan and co are right.
If 700,000 cases through to September is one possible outome form allowing indoor hospitality, or about 14% of the population , we can expect about 260,000 cases in the North over the same period. Lets see, and I'm not even a fan of case numbers, even more so with vaccine roll out.
Of course , farcically , you can book in to a hotel in Ireland today and drink and eat to your hearts contents indoors.
Back in a few days to read the hilarious pile on for criticising St Tony.
You might be right in saying that, I'm not sure. What I do know is that the "compo" culture in Ireland is pretty bad (remember the tram-surfer who was awarded €550k). Antigen testing is more like a screening test. You cannot have "absolute confidence" in the result. But some judge could rule that "absolute confidence" is required. So if someone has covid but an antigen test shows up negative for covid then could that person claim the test gave them a false sense of security and this lead them to infect others in their circle one of whom became seriously ill and another suffers from long covid etc etc etc...
Paul O Mahoney
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You forgot to say " with restrictions " as all countries have their own unique restrictions in place, some fairly lax others fairly tight.
Again I have no idea why you are comparing someone getting vaccinated with under age drinking or getting a licence to drive. Under no plan are children under 12 going to be vaccinated. They are not looking to drive a car or knock back a few pints and a couple of shots. So when exactly are these disease ridden unvaccinated kids going to be allowed to go out with their vaccinated parents to celebrate a meal? You talk about Herd Immunity but NPHET have already said they don't know when this will be as the number required is constantly changing due to variants.
Young people will have to wait until September or October for a vaccine. Yesterday they were told that
a) They can have a vaccine that up to yesterday was not safe for them but hey we are desperate and if they don't take it, they will be punished
b) The interval for the vaccine will be cut to 4 weeks with no scientific evidence to back this up for AZ or Jansen vaccine. We have gone from one of the most cautious approaches to this vaccine in Europe to the other end of the spectrum.
c) They are entitled to work in hospitality but not entitled to enjoy hospitality simply because they are wearing a mask when working. (When exactly did we decide that masks offer such protection and why have we been complete shut downs up to now if that is the case)
That is not to mention that Leo and Micheal have already linked these so called passes to other things like entertainment, concerts, large indoor and outdoor events. So we are not just talking about a large cohort missing out on a few pints. We are talking about young people potentially missing out on lots of things while people like you and me enjoy life while expecting them to serve us but God forbid they might want to actually share some of the same experiences.
Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of this scheme, the Delta variant is in every other country in Europe. They have all opened indoor hospitality with restrictions including some Countries that use this pass. Ireland as usual spend months saying no, no, no, no and then just as they about to reopen as promised to thousands of employees and despite no rise in case numbers, hospitalisations or deaths, NPHET and the Government decide that we now have to introduce a scheme like this. Zero work has been done on this. It was considered such a good idea and such a useful contingency that NPHET, the HSE and the Government have spent zero time and effort up to now. This is despite constant warnings about the threats of variants.
Paul O Mahoney
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The 700,000 is the "worst case" there were other scenarios presented but you've chosen to ignore those for reasons that are apparent.
Northern Ireland are very much further down the vaccination road than us and with a much smaller population and secure vaccine supplies for over six months.
Your elementary mathematics of simply multiplying its population by 14% based on our forecasts , which will be based on unique variables present here and not valid in Northern Ireland, renders the figure you posted as useless in any analysis.
Paul O Mahoney
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Criticising Tony isn't an issue, you posted enough in your post to question if you actually understand the issue(s).
Paul O Mahoney
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I agree and hopefully this will happen.
Paul O Mahoney
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Its been reported by RTE and others that the modelling carried out by NPHET did not account for the usage of both AZ and J&J in younger people.
NPHET should now immediately put those figures " into the hopper " and compare the output and publish.
The effects of not having these included might be significant.
NPHET should now immediately put those figures " into the hopper " and compare the output and publish.
The effects of not having these included might be significant.