State Pension 67 in 2021, 68 in 2028

[Early Riser]

Rather than the issue being to ensure public servants are allowed to continue working after age 65 as mentioned earlier I think the issue for me is why the private sector will only be getting state pension after age 66,67,68 while public servants can retire age 64 and get the state pension (supplementary)

Independent:
"public servants get a "supplementary pension" before they can qualify for the State contributory pension at 66. ... Public Servants are getting a full supplementary pension payment even in cases where they do not have sufficient PRSI contributions to give them the maximum State pension.Nov 13, 2017"

The media reports are somewhat misleading. Firstly, no public servant gets the State Pension before state pension age. Secondly, some public servants qualify for a supplementary pension from their former employer but have to meet certain conditions.

Public servants who joined before 1995 get no state pension at all, at any age, because they have paid Class D PRSI. Nor do they get any suppplementary pension. (There are a small number of exceptions to this as a few circumscribed sectors had Class A PRSI pension schemes prior to 1995). These retirees get a pension directly related to their years of service (provided they are retiring after age 60). So someone with 30 years service retiring on a pensionable salary of €48,000 will get an Occupational Pension of €18,000 (ie, 30/80). The state pension or the supplementary pension never comes into it.

In 1995 public servants new entrants were moved to (higher) Class A PRSI and put on a new pension scheme in which benefits were coordinated with Social Welfare. So if a person on this scheme retires after 60 from the same job and in the same circumstances as above (ie, 30 years of service and a pensionable salary of €48,000) they will get an Occupational Pension of about €8,400 - that is €9,600 less than their previous colleague. They can apply for a Supplementary Pension (of €9,600) to make up for this difference provided they are not eligible for any Social Welfare payment. So in this situation the person must first apply for Jobseekers Benefit. It is only when this is exhausted that they will become eligible for the supplementary payment. And they must meet another condition - they cannot be employed, or self-employed, in any position which is liable to PRSI. Note that the Supplementary in this situation amounts to €9,600 and not the equivalent of the State Pension. It is always calculated so as to bring the pension in payment up to the same level as the previous Class D colleague (the rationale was that they would not be disadvantaged relative to their colleagues on Class D).

In 2004 the minimum age for normal retirement was raised to 65 for all new entrants. A retiree from this scheme could not be eligible for a supplementary pension before age 65. But they would have to apply for Jobseekers before becoming eligible and, as this is now payable for 12 months for over 65s, they would likely reach State Pension age without becoming eligible for a supplementary. As it stands now, they would be eligible for a supplementary for a year when the State Pension age rises to 67.

There is no supplementary eligibility any more for entrants since 2013.

 

[hunter1]

The media reports are somewhat misleading. Firstly, no public servant gets the State Pension before state pension age. Secondly, some public servants qualify for a supplementary pension from their former employer but have to meet certain conditions.

Public servants who joined before 1995 get no state pension at all, at any age, because they have paid Class D PRSI. Nor do they get any suppplementary pension. (There are a small number of exceptions to this as a few circumscribed sectors had Class A PRSI pension schemes prior to 1995). These retirees get a pension directly related to their years of service (provided they are retiring after age 60). So someone with 30 years service retiring on a pensionable salary of €48,000 will get an Occupational Pension of €18,000 (ie, 30/80). The state pension or the supplementary pension never comes into it.

In 1995 public servants new entrants were moved to (higher) Class A PRSI and put on a new pension scheme in which benefits were coordinated with Social Welfare. So if a person on this scheme retires after 60 from the same job and in the same circumstances as above (ie, 30 years of service and a pensionable salary of €48,000) they will get an Occupational Pension of about €8,400 - that is €9,600 less than their previous colleague. They can apply for a Supplementary Pension (of €9,600) to make up for this difference provided they are not eligible for any Social Welfare payment. So in this situation the person must first apply for Jobseekers Benefit. It is only when this is exhausted that they will become eligible for the supplementary payment. And they must meet another condition - they cannot be employed, or self-employed, in any position which is liable to PRSI. Note that the Supplementary in this situation amounts to €9,600 and not the equivalent of the State Pension. It is always calculated so as to bring the pension in payment up to the same level as the previous Class D colleague (the rationale was that they would not be disadvantaged relative to their colleagues on Class D).

In 2004 the minimum age for normal retirement was raised to 65 for all new entrants. A retiree from this scheme could not be eligible for a supplementary pension before age 65. But they would have to apply for Jobseekers before becoming eligible and, as this is now payable for 12 months for over 65s, they would likely reach State Pension age without becoming eligible for a supplementary.

There is no supplementary eligibility any more for entrants since 2013.

How did you calculate the highlighted pension?

According to the CS pension modeller

Pensionable Service to date Service from today to retirement

30 Years and 0 Days

"You would also receive a pension of €11,305. Your pension would be paid in arrears on a fortnightly basis. Based on your Class A Social Welfare status, you may also be entitled to a Social Welfare contributory Old Age Pension from age 66, currently €12,695.39 per annum. If through no fault of your own you fail to qualify for a Social Welfare benefit, you may be entitled to a supplementary pension."

I think I see your error:

" It is always calculated so as to bring the pension in payment up to the same level as the previous Class D colleague (the rationale was that they would not be disadvantaged relative to their colleagues on Class D). "

The "level" is the "30/80ths", not the 18,000 and when you calculate the pension for us, then our 30/80ths is worth more than the pre-1995 employee and that is because we contributed more by way of pension-related deductions, personal contributions and full PRSI contributions.

 

[Early Riser]

"You would also receive a pension of €11,305. Your pension would be paid in arrears on a fortnightly basis. Based on your Class A Social Welfare status, you may also be entitled to a Social Welfare contributory Old Age Pension from age 66, currently €12,695.39 per annum. If through no fault of your own you fail to qualify for a Social Welfare benefit, you may be entitled to a supplementary pension."

Hunter, your figure for the pension is correct for someone in your sector, ie Gardai, Prison Officers, etc who qualify for full pensions after 30 years of service. That is not the norm in the public service, where 40 years of service is required for a full pension. That is what my example is based on.

The Supplementary Pension may in some circumstances equal the State Pension. This would be for someone who qualifies for a full pension (ie, 30 years in your case, 40 years more generally). In each individual case, though, it is always calculated as the difference between the Class A Occupational Pension in payment and what an equivalent Class D pensioner would get in the same circumstances. Hence the figure for the Supplementary in my example.

 

[hunter1]

Hunter, your figure for the pension is correct for someone in your sector, ie Gardai, Prison Officers, etc who qualify for full pensions after 30 years of service. That is not the norm in the public service, where 40 years of service is required for a full pension. That is what my example is based on.

The Supplementary Pension may in some circumstances equal the State Pension. This would be for someone who qualifies for a full pension (ie, 30 years in your case, 40 years more generally). In each individual case, though, it is always calculated as the difference between the Class A Occupational Pension in payment and what an equivalent Class D pensioner would get in the same circumstances. Hence the figure for the Supplementary in my example.

That figure isn't the pension for prison officers, I didn't use that model I used the normal CS one.

* EDIT - I used 30 years service, not 40 years, which is exactly the example you used and the figure is different.

We qualify with 30 years of time served, but we pay 40 years of contributions.

I get what you're trying to say and I get that each individual circumstances are different, but isn't what stays the same is how the pension is calculated.

How did you calculate this pension?

"(ie, 30 years of service and a pensionable salary of €48,000) they will get an Occupational Pension of about €8,400 "

Is there a different model/formula? Can you link me to it please.

EDIT. Look sorry for annoying you and thanks for the help.

 

[Early Riser]

We qualify with 30 years of time served, but we pay 40 years of contributions

Hunter, As previously noted your pension is different to the general public service pension. And for your pension your figures look correct.

However, in my example, I am looking at regular public service pensions. How I got the figure was as a rough calculation. But here is the fuller version for a post-1995 Class A PS retiring with 30 years of service on a salary of €48,000:

€43,032 * 30/200 = €6455
€4968 * 30/80 = €1863

€6455 + €1863 = €8318 = Pension

Here is the formula described:

"Pension Calculation for staff recruited after 5 April 1995:

The method of calculating Main Scheme pension for officers recruited on or after 6 April 1995 who qualify for benefits on or after 1 January 2004 is:
(a)For that part of the officer’s pensionable remuneration which is less than or equal to 3 1/3 times the current rate of CSP, 1/200th of pensionable remuneration multiplied by the number of years of reckonable service plus
(b) For any part of the officer’s Pensionable Remuneration which exceeds 3 1/3times CSP, 1/80th of pensionable remuneration multiplied by the number of years of reckonable service.
A multiplier of 3.333333 (i.e. 6 decimal places) is used to calculate 31/3 times CSP.

The maximum number of years of reckonable service is 40.The CSP rate is the maximum Contributory State Pension."

See 11.8 here: http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/SuperannuationHandbookandGuidanceDec20061.pdf


Or for a simpler estimate, use the modeller for "Established Civil Servants recruited after 1st April 1995" for 30 years of service and a salary of €48,000 (It probably won't be exactly right as it depends on the Modeller having been updated to the current rate of State Pension - it is usually a bit behind the times).

But But But - this is not your situation. The terms of your pension scheme are different!

 

[hunter1]

Hunter, As previously noted your pension is different to the general public service pension. And for your pension your figures look correct.

However, in my example, I am looking at regular public service pensions. How I got the figure was as a rough calculation. But here is the fuller version for a post-1995 Class A PS retiring with 30 years of service on a salary of €48,000:

€43,032 * 30/200 = €6455
€4968 * 30/80 = €1863

€6455 + €1863 = €8318 = Pension

Here is the formula described:

"Pension Calculation for staff recruited after 5 April 1995:

The method of calculating Main Scheme pension for officers recruited on or after 6 April 1995 who qualify for benefits on or after 1 January 2004 is:
(a)For that part of the officer’s pensionable remuneration which is less than or equal to 3 1/3 times the current rate of CSP, 1/200th of pensionable remuneration multiplied by the number of years of reckonable service plus
(b) For any part of the officer’s Pensionable Remuneration which exceeds 3 1/3times CSP, 1/80th of pensionable remuneration multiplied by the number of years of reckonable service.
A multiplier of 3.333333 (i.e. 6 decimal places) is used to calculate 31/3 times CSP.

The maximum number of years of reckonable service is 40.The CSP rate is the maximum Contributory State Pension."

See 11.8 here: http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/SuperannuationHandbookandGuidanceDec20061.pdf


Or for a simpler estimate, use the modeller for "Established Civil Servants recruited after 1st April 1995" for 30 years of service and a salary of €48,000 (It probably won't be exactly right as it depends on the Modeller having been updated to the current rate of State Pension - it is usually a bit behind the times).

But But But - this is not your situation. The terms of your pension scheme are different!

Great stuff, thanks a million. I'll have to sit and study that formula, I have seen it before but I've never sat and worked it out before.

Regarding the terms of our scheme, the only difference (as far as I am aware), is our retirement age, as I said, we still make 40 years of contributions and our pension is 50% or 40/80ths, even though we only serve 30 years.

 

[hunter1]

Actually, would you believe this:

Transitional payment for retirees at same rate as State pension to avoid anomaly confirmed

TAOISEACH Leo Varadkar has said Fine Gael plans to introduce a transition payment at the same rate as the State pension to avoid people having to apply for the dole when they retire.

www.independent.ie

"TAOISEACH Leo Varadkar has said Fine Gael plans to introduce a transition payment at the same rate as the State pension to avoid people having to apply for the dole when they retire.
Mr Varadkar was responding to growing disquiet among voters over the government’s plan to raise the retirement age to 67 next year. This will force some workers whose contracts require them to retire at 65 or 66 to apply for jobseekers’ allowance, which is lower than the State pension."

That should apply to us too.

 

[Early Riser]

Regarding the terms of our scheme, the only difference (as far as I am aware), is our retirement age, as I said, we still make 40 years of contributions and our pension is 50% or 40/80ths, even though we only serve 30 years.

I am really not familiar with your scheme but I think this is correct. Using the same formula but applying 40 years of service instead of 30 (as per your scheme) gives an Occupational Pension of €11,090. This is close to your estimate from the Modeller - the difference is probably due to the Modeller being set to a slightly out of date State Pension figure.

 

[nad]

These haven't too much to worry about as regards their pension.

 

[hunter1]

I am really not familiar with your scheme but I think this is correct. Using the same formula but applying 40 years of service instead of 30 (as per your scheme) gives an Occupational Pension of €11,090. This is close to your estimate from the Modeller - the difference is probably due to the Modeller being set to a slightly out of date State Pension figure.

Okay thanks a million, but this still doesn't look right:

"60 from the same job and in the same circumstances as above (ie, 30 years of service and a pensionable salary of €48,000) they will get an Occupational Pension of about €8,400 - that is €9,600 less than their previous colleague. They can apply for a Supplementary Pension (of €9,600) to make up for this difference provided they are not eligible for any Social Welfare payment.

You're calculating the post-1995's 30/80ths the same way as the pre-1995's 30/80ths was calculated and it was calculated as follows:

24,000/40/x30 = 18,000.

Using the formula you linked for the post 1995 employee with 30 (not 40) years whose pension is now integrated with the State pension:

State pension is 248.30 x 52 = 12,911.60
x 3.333333 = 43038.66

1/200th is 215.19 x 30 years = 6,455.70

4,961.34 = 1/80th = 62.01 x 30 = 1,860.30

Occupational pension - 8,316

If this employee, who has only served 30 of the 40 years service, but has paid the required PRSI contributions, then they are entitled to the rate of the State pension of 12,911.60, which is what it says on the modeler, although they cannot access until they are that age.

So while the pre-1995 employee's 30/80ths is 18,000, the post-1995's 30/80ths is 21227.60.

Providing that the post-1995 staff who will not retire on full service have their PRSI contributions paid, then the supplementary pension should always be the rate of the state pension.

 

[Early Riser]

If this employee, who has only served 30 of the 40 years service, but has paid the required PRSI contributions, then they are entitled to the rate of the State pension of 12,911.60, which is what it says on the modeler, although they cannot access until they are that age.

So while the pre-1995 employee's 30/80ths is 18,000, the post-1995's 30/80ths is 21227.60.

That is not correct. The modeller states that you may be entitled to state pension based on your PRSI record. When you get to State Pension age the Dept of Social Welfare will determine what you qualify for, based on your full record (both within the public service - and without, if applicable). The modeller does not state that you will get a State Pension - or what level of State Pnsion you will qualify for. For example, if you use the modeller to calculate the pension for someone who has just 3 years of service it will state the same thing. But clearly 3 years of PRSI will not qualify someone for the State Pension (they might qualify if they have significant additional private sector PRSI, but that is a different matter). The modeller does not say the level of Supplementary Pension for the individual, just that you may be entitled to one.

For a standard post- 95er with 30 years service and a salary of €48,000, they qualify for an Occ Pension of €8,316. If they meet the criteria for a Supplementary Pension it would amount to €9684 (ie 18,000 - 8316) to bring them up to the level of an equivalent Class D. When they get to State Pension age the Dept Of Social Welfare will determine what level of State Pension they will get - based on their total record.

If this person was in your pension scheme they would get an Occ Pension of about €11090 and, if eligible, a Supplementary of €12,910 (24000 -11090), as the equivalent Class D in your situation would get €24k. In your case the value of the Supplementary equates to that of the State Pension.

 

[Conan]

These haven't too much to worry about as regards their pension.


View attachment 4234

Where did the capital values come from. They don't look correct. E Kenny and C O'Caolain have similar benefits but very different capital values???
As an approx capital value you could assume a multiple of say 35 times the Pension plus the lump sum
Worth bearing in mind that someone getting a full State Pension (plus Qualified Adult Dependents Pension) of c€25,000, this has a capital value of c€750,000.

 

[hunter1]

That is not correct. The modeller states that you may be entitled to state pension based on your PRSI record. When you get to State Pension age the Dept of Social Welfare will determine what you qualify for, based on your full record (both within the public service - and without, if applicable). The modeller does not state that you will get a State Pension - or what level of State Pnsion you will qualify for. For example, if you use the modeller to calculate the pension for someone who has just 3 years of service it will state the same thing. But clearly 3 years of PRSI will not qualify someone for the State Pension (they might qualify if they have significant additional private sector PRSI, but that is a different matter). The modeller does not say the level of Supplementary Pension for the individual, just that you may be entitled to one.

For a standard post- 95er with 30 years service and a salary of €48,000, they qualify for an Occ Pension of €8,316. If they meet the criteria for a Supplementary Pension it would amount to €9684 (ie 18,000 - 8316) to bring them up to the level of an equivalent Class D. When they get to State Pension age the Dept Of Social Welfare will determine what level of State Pension they will get - based on their total record.

If this person was in your pension scheme they would get an Occ Pension of about €11090 and, if eligible, a Supplementary of €12,910 (24000 -11090), as the equivalent Class D in your situation would get €24k. In your case the value of the Supplementary equates to that of the State Pension.

Which is what I said in my post.

"If this employee, who has only served 30 of the 40 years service, but has paid the required PRSI contributions, then they are entitled to the rate of the State pension of 12,911.60, which is what it says on the modeler, although they cannot access until they are that age. ....

Providing that the post-1995 staff who will not retire on full service have their PRSI contributions paid "

I believe that you're incorrect, because you are basing the post 95 pension entitlement as 18k, which was calculated using the old method for the pre 95er, the entitlement is not 18k, it's 30/80ths and that is more than 18k, because we paid PRSI stamp and the pension formula is based on the rate of the state pension.

Thanks for your information, I do appreciate it, we will have to disagree on this one.

Just to add this:

Most public servants who retire early escape financial impact of increase to State pension age

The majority of public servants are not affected by the increase to the State pension age, it has emerged.

www.independent.ie

"Pensions expert Tony Gilhawley, of Technical Guidance, said: "Public servants who joined between April 6, 1995 and January 1, 2013 (the majority of the current public service workforce) who are entitled to the State pension, can be paid a 'supplementary pension' by the State if they retire before the State pension age to make up for not getting the State pension until later."

He said it was unfair that a public service employee who retires at, say, 63 can get a top up or 'supplementary' pension from the State equal to the State pension between 63 and 67 if they don't work."

 

[Early Riser]

"If this employee, who has only served 30 of the 40 years service, but has paid the required PRSI contributions, then they are entitled to the rate of the State pension of 12,911.60, which is what it says on the modeler, although they cannot access until they are that age. ....

Hunter, You are simply mistaken in this - it is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeeing.

It does not say on the modeller that they are entitled to the rate of State Pension. Instead, it says "Based on your Class A Social Welfare status, you may also be entitled to a Social Welfare contributory Old Age Pension from age 66." This is a standard statement on the modeller and is not related to the individual's PRSI record. The modeller does not "know" the person's PRSI record. Only the actual pension figures (Occupational pension and Lump Sum) are individualised.

For example, I just put in an estimate for an individual with 2 years service - it gave an occ pension estimate of €566 pa but the same standard line was also included that "Based on your Class A Social Welfare status, you may also be entitled to a Social Welfare contributory Old Age Pension from age 66, currently €12,695.39 per annum". Noone gets a State pension based on 2 years PRSI - but they may get it based on their full PRSI record (which the modeller knows nothing about). Or they may not get a full State Pension - or any State Pension at all.

He said it was unfair that a public service employee who retires at, say, 63 can get a top up or 'supplementary' pension from the State equal to the State pension between 63 and 67 if they don't work."

Yes, certain retired PSs can get a supplementary pension equal to the value of the State Pension. But only if they have 40 years service (for a standard public service scheme) or 30 years service for a scheme like yours. If they have less than full pensionable service the Supplementary will be less than this. (The above example would apply to a post 1995 but pre-2004 entrant).

Anyway, enjoyable as this exploration has been, I think we have exhausted it. I certainly have from my side.

Good luck with the pension journey !

 

[hunter1]

We are both saying the same thing, the state pension entitlement is dependent on the PRSI record that's not where I disagree with you.

This is where I disagree:

"Public servants who joined before 1995 get no state pension at all, at any age, because they have paid Class D PRSI. Nor do they get any suppplementary pension. (There are a small number of exceptions to this as a few circumscribed sectors had Class A PRSI pension schemes prior to 1995). These retirees get a pension directly related to their years of service (provided they are retiring after age 60). So someone with 30 years service retiring on a pensionable salary of €48,000 will get an Occupational Pension of €18,000 (ie, 30/80). The state pension or the supplementary pension never comes into it.

In 1995 public servants new entrants were moved to (higher) Class A PRSI and put on a new pension scheme in which benefits were coordinated with Social Welfare. So if a person on this scheme retires after 60 from the same job and in the same circumstances as above (ie, 30 years of service and a pensionable salary of €48,000) they will get an Occupational Pension of about €8,400 - that is €9,600 less than their previous colleague."

You are saying that the pension entitlement of the post 95er on a salary of 48k, with 30 years service, is the same pension entitlement of 18k as their pre95er colleague, I disagree with you.

I was sent this pension calculation by someone who is retired on medical grounds, she received it prior to her retirement so it's a couple of years old, she received a couple of added years to bring her up to 20 years, a half pension.

"IHR 20 years no doubled up years.

Final reckonable salary - 40,908 plus 19,000 =59,980

Annual Pension

40057 by 20/200 equals 4005.70

19923 by 20/80 equals 4980.75

State pension is 12017 payable at 66 but in the interim disability benefit and/or supplementary pension should be payable

Total pension = 21,003"

She does receive disability benefit which is lower than the rate of the state pension and she receives the supplementary pension which brought her up to her total pension package of 21,003.

If a pre 1995er was retiring with 20 years service on 59980, then the maximum pension entitlement with full service would be 29,980, under the old calculation, the entitlement of 20/80th was calculated as follows:

29,980x40/20 = 14,990

Now here's where I disagree with you, because if we say that her benefit would have been the same as the pre 1995er (20/80ths 14,990), the calculation above shows that her occupational pension is 8,985.75 and at the time I think the disability benefit was about 220 a week or 11.440 a year, which brings her up to 20,425.75, which is still more than 14,990.

I don't want to appear argumentative and I know that you're very well up on pensions, but I do believe that in relation to post 1995 benefits that you are wrong because you are comparing them to pre 1995 pensions (those with less than full service) that were calculated using the old method, when our pensions are calculated using the new method because our PRSI benefits are integrated into our final pension package.

Edit, even if we were to use the figures above for someone retiring with only 20 years service, their occupational pension is 8985.75 and if they were to sign on for JSB which is say 220 or 11,440, the calculation would look the same, while the pre95er would be entitled to 14,990, the occupational pension and JSB would bring the post 1995er up to 20,425.75.

The post 95 30/80ths is calculated like this:

State pension is 248.30 x 52 = 12,911.60
x 3.333333 = 43038.66

1/200th is 215.19 x 30 years = 6,455.70

4,961.34 = 1/80th = 62.01 x 30 = 1,860.30

Occupational pension - 8,316

The state pension 12,911.60 which is not payable until 66/67/68

Total pension = 21227.60.

Rate of JSB payable at 11,440 added to the 8,316 = 19,756, more than the pre 95er, so the supplementary pension in this case would be 1471.60.

If they do bring in the new rule where we don't have to sign on for the JSB and replace this with the supplementary pension, then it will be at the rate of the state pension.

 

[hunter1]

Someone else sent me their retirement calculation, 18.6 years service:

• €56,442.54 - €40,578.63 = €15,863.91
• €40,578.63/200 = €202.89*18.633424 = €3,780.59
• €15,863.91/80 = €198.29*18.633424 = €3,694.99
• €3,780.59 + €3,694.99 = €7,475.58

State pension is 12017 payable at 66 but in the interim disability benefit and/or supplementary pension should be payable

Total pension - 19492.58

In this case, disability benefit was 203 or 10,556, plus the occupational pension 7,475.58 = 18,031.58 and she receives a supplementary pension of 1,461 which brought her to her total pension of 19492.58.

For a pre 95er the pension would be calculated as follows:

56,442.54, the maximum pension = 28,221.27

28,221.27/40x18.6 = 13,122.89

And again, the difference is because pre 1995ers did not make a personal contribution, they did not pay PRSI and their pension benefit is not integrated with social welfare benefits.

And this is where my query started because I was told that I would not receive my full entitlement on my retirement, I was told that this would be reduced by the rate of the state pension as I could not claim this because I wasn't the age.

On retiring I was advised that I had to apply for JSB to bring the benefit up to 40/80ths (which it didn't), on exhausting JSB I was to then make the application for the supplementary pension, this payment would then cease when I reached the state pension age.

I found this just an incredible and convoluted way to get the same benefit as my pre-1995 colleague.

Thankfully, it appears that this anomaly has been identified and if a private sector employee doesn't have to sign on when they retire, then the same should apply to me.

Maybe Early Riser won't agree with this, but these calculations are from our pension department.

 

[gianni]

These haven't too much to worry about as regards their pension.


View attachment 4234

Do you think politicians shouldn't be able to benefit from a pension? They are treated no differently in relation to other civil servants.

 

[orka]

Where did the capital values come from. They don't look correct. E Kenny and C O'Caolain have similar benefits but very different capital values???
As an approx capital value you could assume a multiple of say 35 times the Pension plus the lump sum
Worth bearing in mind that someone getting a full State Pension (plus Qualified Adult Dependents Pension) of c€25,000, this has a capital value of c€750,000.

Does look odd alright - particularly as EK is a bit older than COC. It could be that they are showing his retiring TD's annual pension but the capital amount is for everything including his ex-Taoiseach pension (which I think would be in excess of 100K p.a.)
EK's pension will be permanently linked to the prevailing Taoiseach salary while COC's will be linked to the prevailing TD salary but I doubt there's much difference expected in the inflation)


[PS any chance the Early Riser / hunter1 mega-calcs posts could be hived off elsewhere? They are very specific and not really on the original topic / general discussion]

 

[hunter1]

Does look odd alright - particularly as EK is a bit older than COC. It could be that they are showing his retiring TD's annual pension but the capital amount is for everything including his ex-Taoiseach pension (which I think would be in excess of 100K p.a.)
EK's pension will be permanently linked to the prevailing Taoiseach salary while COC's will be linked to the prevailing TD salary but I doubt there's much difference expected in the inflation)


[PS any chance the Early Riser / hunter1 mega-calcs posts could be hived off elsewhere? They are very specific and not really on the original topic / general discussion]

My sincere apologies, I actually thought that I was in the original thread where my query started.

 

[Steven Barrett]

According to Charlie Weston this morning:

Charlie Weston: 'Private sector workers are hung out to dry as taxpayers left to fund unfair gold-plated system'

You have to admire public servants. The biggest issue in the election so far is the State pension age being raised. Yet our public servants managed to insulate themselves from this costly change.

www.independent.ie

"Take a public servant on €80,000, retiring after 40 years at age 64.

Her public service pension is worked out at €27,045 a year. When this is added to the State pension of €12,956 gives her a 50pc final salary pension, according to calculations by pensions expert Tony Gilhawley of Technical Guidance.

But she won't get the State pension until she is 67.

Provided she is not working, her public service employer will pay her a 'supplementary pension' of €12,956 a year between retirement at 64 and State pension age at 67.

In effect she will get the State pension immediately except that for the first three years it's paid by her employer as a supplementary pension."

But from what I have been reading on this site from other Garda as well as ourselves, this is not the case because we have been advised that we have to first sign on the dole for 9 months (leaving us with a shortfall of the difference between JSB and the State pension) and then apply for the supplementary pension from our own department.

Now what Charlie is saying makes much more sense in a way, where it ceases to make sense is why, when we are entitled to half our salary from our employer on retirement, that part of this is classed as a "supplement", we're not asking for or getting any more than the 50% that is our pension package.

That article is a hatchet job. In this example, the public servant has contributed to their pension for 40 year as well as their PRSI contributions. They are compared to someone who has never contributed to a private pension in their life, just their PRSI.

Why not compare what the situation would be if they had contributed 6.5% of salary to a defined contribution pension for 40 years?
- Just worked out if a private sector worker starting on €20,000 a year, invested 6.5% of their salary for 40 years, they would have €322,621 at the end. This assumes growth of 6% per annum and a pay increase of 3% each year.

It also highlights the benefits of being in a union, a body that a lot of private sector workers won't pay for.

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie