The screw is being turned on the DUP

[WolfeTone]

Every time someone talks about conspiracies involving rich bankers trying to rule the Country, that in my opinion has very worrying undertones

What has that got to do with Jeremy Corbyn?

If Corbyn doesn't have an anti-Semitic bone in his body, he can start by avoiding putting himself in the position where is sharing platforms with terrorists, holocaust deniers, Anti Israeli nut jobs

Jeremy Corbyn has been a political activist for a peaceful resolution to the conflict in Palestine and Israel. He is the leader of the Labour party in UK.
He is duty bound to talk and meet to whoever he considers capable of bringing one or both, or all, sides to a peaceful resolution.
If I were to label Israeli government as anti-Palestinian terrorist nut jobs, presumably I would be labelled anti-semitic?

and start dealing with the anti semitic problem in his own party that has been brought to his attention by people in his own party (Not by Jewish Bankers). He won't do that though.

But he is. He may not have made a good job of it, he may not have recognized anti-semitism within the Labour party (probably because it is at minutiae levels).
But to say he wont do anything about it, is again false.
Go to UK Labour party website and search anti-semitism

Action Plan for Driving out Antisemitism: concluded – The Labour Party

Labour's plan for driving out antisemitism.

labour.org.uk

So the only conclusion can be that he shares the same views or he is an enabler for these views as he knows that these hard left nut job supporters are the ones keeping him in a job.

Your conclusion is based on false premise.

 

[Purple]

A

Ahhh! You haven't been following the Great Debate between myself and Purple. I was remarking on the incredible consensus between FG, FF, SF, SDLP, FOT et. al. and had dubbed it as pan nationalist. Purple argued that since FG were Blueshirts this could not be called nationalist. I didn't quite follow the argument but looked for a more definitive common denominator and "catholic" sort of jumped off the page.
Purple himself has come out that he is neither nationalist nor catholic. I suppose he must be the exception that proves the rule. Only I think Purple is in a different space from the pan nationalists (catholics). I think he actually believes we will be plunged back to 1972 come November. The pans are only using it as a bargaining tool. And boy have they been successful. We have everybody from Pelosi to Barnier riffing on about the Peace Process.

I don't think we'll be plunged back to 1972 come November and I certainly don't want a united Ireland any time soon (not in the next 100 years). What I do think is that you are being incredibly naive if you think that Ireland moving on the backstop will result in an orderly Brexit. It will simply enable BoJo and the Tory extremists to redraw the line and start negotiating again. It's also naive to think that it's within our gift to fix this. We are part of the broader EU family and a minor one at that.
Describing a general consensus by people and parties from a broad range of political, social and economic backgrounds as "pan nationalist" is just silly. This has nothing to do with nationalism, rather it is based on pragmatism and in dealing with the reality of the irrationality of one of the other protagonists.

 

[Sunny]

What has that got to do with Jeremy Corbyn?



Jeremy Corbyn has been a political activist for a peaceful resolution to the conflict in Palestine and Israel. He is the leader of the Labour party in UK.
He is duty bound to talk and meet to whoever he considers capable of bringing one or both, or all, sides to a peaceful resolution.
If I were to label Israeli government as anti-Palestinian terrorist nut jobs, presumably I would be labelled anti-semitic?




But he is. He may not have made a good job of it, he may not have recognized anti-semitism within the Labour party (probably because it is at minutiae levels).
But to say he wont do anything about it, is again false.
Go to UK Labour party website and search anti-semitism

Action Plan for Driving out Antisemitism: concluded – The Labour Party

Labour's plan for driving out antisemitism.

labour.org.uk

Your conclusion is based on false premise.

Grand. Its all fake news and I fell for it...….

 

[Early Riser]

Go to UK Labour party website and search anti-semitism

Words, not actions. He may or may not personally be anti-semite. But many of his Momentum (any other) far left power base are. At the very least he tolerates it - any action taken has only been after public pressure being applied.

 

[galway_blow_in]

Every time someone talks about conspiracies involving rich bankers trying to rule the Country, that in my opinion has very worrying undertones. We have been here before. If Corbyn doesn't have an anti-Semitic bone in his body, he can start by avoiding putting himself in the position where is sharing platforms with terrorists, holocaust deniers, Anti Israeli nut jobs and start dealing with the anti semitic problem in his own party that has been brought to his attention by people in his own party (Not by Jewish Bankers). He won't do that though. So the only conclusion can be that he shares the same views or he is an enabler for these views as he knows that these hard left nut job supporters are the ones keeping him in a job. Either way, he is not fit to lead the main opposition party.

Who here claimed that any banker of a particular ethnicity was behind the corbyn takedown attempt?

I used the term 1%, there are probably people of all faiths and none anxious about a potential corbyn premiership and willing to act to prevent same.

I would not vote for Labour under corbyn, I don't agree with him on the economy at all but I don't believe he should be subject to a dirty tricks campaign either

 

[WolfeTone]

At local Councillor and Local branch level there is a significant amount of holocaust denial, "Rothschild" conspiracy and "Middle East" one nation solution material shared by her and others. What it has to do with the Labour party is that they are party officials and representatives.

My bad. There are examples of anti-semitism of this nature. My point is geared towards the assertion made here that JC is anti-Semitic. He is not.
Nor is the UK Labour party, a party of anti-semitism.
In incidences where anti-Semitic views have been expressed, the Labour party has failed to act appropriately. This is changing, councillors are being suspended and Labours stance against anti-Semitism stands.

 

[galway_blow_in]

Anyone can criticise Israeli gov policy - it is easily done. That is not the same as consorting with Hamas who are committed to "driving the Jews into the sea" and obliterating the state of Israel - violently and indiscrimately. It is also different from promoting anti Jewish tropes.
Someone on this thread mentioned Bernie Sanders. He is someone who has ofetn criticised Israel - but he has not associated himself with the type of anti-semitism so often seen on Britain's far left (now controlling Labour).

Anyway, best to wait for the outcome ot the investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission - by the way, only the second time it has ever investigated a political party, the other being the BNP. Here's the ref:

"We are using our powers under the Equality Act to open an investigation, which will look at:

• whether unlawful acts have been committed by the Party or its employees or agents
• the steps taken by the Party to implement the recommendations made in the reports on antisemitism by Baroness Royall, the Home Affairs Select Committee and in the Chakrabarti Report
• whether the Rule Book and the Party’s investigatory and disciplinary processes have enabled or could enable it to deal efficiently and effectively with complaints of race or religion or belief discrimination and racial harassment or victimisation, including whether appropriate sanctions have been or could be applied
• whether the Party has responded to complaints of unlawful acts in a lawful, efficient and effective manner."

Investigation into the Labour Party | Equality and Human Rights Commission

www.equalityhumanrights.com

I pointed to bernie sanders, he is constantly railing against the 1% in America, I posed the idea of him being accused of anti semetism ( despite being Jewish) to highlight how hanging the label is a weapon, who it's on is irrelevant

 

[Purple]

Words, not actions. He may or may not personally be anti-semite. But many of his Momentum (any other) far left power base are. At the very least he tolerates it - any action taken has only been after public pressure being applied.

He's a fellow traveller with the anti semitic far left but it is his far left marxism, coupled with his contempt for democracy (as seen by his actions within his own party) that make him unsuitable for any form of leadership.

 

[Purple]

I pointed to bernie sanders, he is constantly railing against the 1% in America, I posed the idea of him being accused of anti semetism ( despite being Jewish) to highlight how hanging the label is a weapon, who it's on is irrelevant

Very true; criticism of Israel is not the same as anti semitism. It is certainly the case that many of on the right throw the term around far too easily.

That doesn't mean the UK Labour Party is not anti semitic though, as demonstrated by the fact that they have acted against it only due to public and media pressure and not out of any real conviction that it was a problem for them.

 

[WolfeTone]

Words, not actions. He may or may not personally be anti-semite. But many of his Momentum (any other) far left power base are. At the very least he tolerates it - any action taken has only been after public pressure being applied.

Where there are incidences of anti-semitism the Labour party has been slow to act appropriately.
But its policies are now, as they have always been, to rail against all forms of racial and sectarian bigotry, including anti-semitism.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Describing a general consensus by people and parties from a broad range of political, social and economic backgrounds as "pan nationalist" is just silly. This has nothing to do with nationalism, rather it is based on pragmatism and in dealing with the reality of the irrationality of one of the other protagonists.

Purple ever do Venn diagrams at school. Imagine a Venn diagram with Irish people north and south as the Universe. Now draw the following circles. Those describing themselves as nationalist. Those describing themselves as unionists. Catholics. Protestants. Those for the sea border. Those against the sea border. You will find the Universe splits into two sets of 3 circles which themselves overlap to a degree which makes them almost indistinguishable.
Oh and you will be that little dot which is in none of the circles except that you are for a sea border.

 

[Early Riser]

But its policies are now, as they have always been, to rail against all forms of racial and sectarian bigotry, including anti-semitism.

Yes, railing against things of one sort or another tends to come easily to the hard left. Up to now the railing about anti-semitism in general terms hasn't been matched by actions in relation to specific individulals.

 

[galway_blow_in]

Very true; criticism of Israel is not the same as anti semitism. It is certainly the case that many of on the right throw the term around far too easily.

That doesn't mean the UK Labour Party is not anti semitic though, as demonstrated by the fact that they have acted against it only due to public and media pressure and not out of any real conviction that it was a problem for them.

I don't think Israel has anything to do with the smear campaign, it's all about pegging dirt, anti semetism label does the job

You hear the IRA buddy as well

 

[Purple]

Oh and you will be that little dot which is in none of the circles except that you are for a sea border.

I'm not in favour of a sea border. I'm interested in the East-West trade, the land bridge through Britain to the mainland. Northern Ireland is a tribal backwater and a failed political and economic entity. They will be poor and live on handouts no matter what happens with Brexit. I care about Ireland and the people were. I'd be happy to live within a federal Europe but not as a British colony as we did for so long. I detest Nationalism but I am a republican in that I support the ideals of a republic.
So' I'm not Catholic, not nationalist and not in favour of a border on the Irish Sea. Those who disagree with your view on the position of the Irish Government on Brexit, in that they agree with the position of the government, are not some homogeneous group who are blinded by emotion or history. Maybe they are just being rational and pragmatic.

 

[Purple]

But its policies are now, as they have always been, to rail against all forms of racial and sectarian bigotry, including anti-semitism.

I dunno about that. I've often heard those on the left talking about the "employer classes" (as if such a thing exists) and how they exploit the "wurkers". What's more bigoted than that?

 

[WolfeTone]

Simon Varadkar has made this a winner takes all struggle. Any sort of increased visibility of the border on the island and nationalists will have been deserted,

Not "any sort of increased visibility" - that is surely the technological solutions we are being promised?

It is a hard border. Plain and simple. The permanent fixture of customs posts that require Irish people, in Ireland, to stop their vehicles and declare goods, provide id, etc while going about their business.
BJ promises, that under no circumstances, will the UK impose checks on their side.
But this is completely at odds, once again, with what Brexit is supposed to be about.
The end of FoM, taking control of borders, making own rules and regulations. While simultaneously, leaving its land border with EU wide open for anyone and everything to come and go as they please without any regard for border controls, FoM, and any new rules and regulations.

What are the rights of a Polish lorry driver working for a distribution company in Dundalk making deliveries to Newry?
Is that person allowed into UK?
If involved in an accident in NI, is the company insured for damage to vehicle?
Is the driver insured against injury?
Is he covered by NHS?

What does the UK intend to do in such circumstances, relative to its commitment to end FoM on 1st November?
Without answers this is an affront to Irish people and businesses and EU citizens who enjoy rights and entitlements on this island

a sea border inside the UK and unionists have been duped by a process which supposedly required their consent for any major change to NI's position within the UK

How does a sea border in any way change NI's position within the UK?
Considering both DUP and British government are already certain that Brexit Britain will be different to Brexit NI (no border controls, FoM)

 

[Early Riser]

I pointed to bernie sanders, he is constantly railing against the 1% in America, I posed the idea of him being accused of anti semetism ( despite being Jewish) to highlight how hanging the label is a weapon, who it's on is irrelevant

I don't think it is irrelevant. I am not aware of Bernie Sanders being accused of anti-semitism but if some have (other than hypothetically positing it) it could easily be refuted by reference to his even handed criticisms of both sides in the conflict. That is criticism of the leadership and extremists on both sides. He also references the rights of people on both sides.
References to the conflict (and to Jews more generally) from Momentumists have been far from even-handed. Indeed, it is ironic that if Sanders was not the figurehead for what passes for the left in the US (which is very far from Momentum) he is just the type of "Jew" who they would denigrate - as a volunteer Kibbutz worker in his youth (a Zionist!).

 

[WolfeTone]

I dunno about that. I've often heard those on the left talking about the "employer classes" (as if such a thing exists) and how they exploit the "wurkers". What's more bigoted than that?

I don't think employers are a race or a religion?
Talk of worker exploitation by employers is just that, perceived or real, people are entitled to feel they are getting a raw deal or being exploited.
But its not against all employers, only those that unduly exploit. Most workers will recognize when they are working for decent employers.

 

[Purple]

I don't think employers are a race or a religion?
Talk of worker exploitation by employers is just that, perceived or real, people are entitled to feel they are getting a raw deal or being exploited.
But its not against all employers, only those that unduly exploit. Most workers will recognize when they are working for decent employers.

Do you think there's such thing s "the employer classes" or are there just employers?
I think suggesting that the left has a great record on tackling exploitation and injustice is very one-eyes. They certainly protect the interests of their own but so does everyone. Virtue signalling and virtue are not the same thing.

 

[Sunny]

Purple ever do Venn diagrams at school. Imagine a Venn diagram with Irish people north and south as the Universe. Now draw the following circles. Those describing themselves as nationalist. Those describing themselves as unionists. Catholics. Protestants. Those for the sea border. Those against the sea border. You will find the Universe splits into two sets of 3 circles which themselves overlap to a degree which makes them almost indistinguishable.
Oh and you will be that little dot which is in none of the circles except that you are for a sea border.

Maybe Purple like the UK will be just fine in their splendid isolation!